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Penalties for Fighting

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ibop
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Penalties for Fighting

Postby ibop Tue Dec 02, 2008 11:59 pm

Just a quick clarification, whilst some fights are both players giving as good as each other, some are clearly one person attacking and the other defending themselves. Whilst the penalties for the first are obvious, what would people give penalty wise for the second situation?
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Postby jameskellam Wed Dec 03, 2008 8:28 pm

Start from the following principle, modify as necessary to accomodate what actually happens which will never be as simple as I have outlined.

If one person is doing the fighting and the other is covering up or retreating, you only have one foul. Three minutes or an expulsion for the aggressor.

Just because two blokes are belting each other doesn't mean the bloke who didn't start it is acting in self defence. Retaliation is not the same thing - I used to spend my life explaining this to defence lawyers. Three minutes each. expel them both for a sustained fight.

Expel the third man in (and the fourth and any subsequent).

These guidelines are supposed to apply to "real" fights. Knock a bit off for a case of "handbags" (frankly thats all it usually is where I work).

"Afters" (including dissent to the ref) carries a further penalty.
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Postby dblacklock Wed Dec 03, 2008 10:50 pm

Well explained. Think I will steal this for my referee clinics!!!
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Postby kjk20 Thu Dec 04, 2008 1:01 am

In the report to the disciplinary committe, does the referre get to say who instigated the fight, and does the committe look differently on who started the fight?

I'm thinking of ice hockey where both fighters will serve 5 minutes, but if someone is seen as instigating the fight, they will get fines or league suspensions.
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Postby jameskellam Thu Dec 04, 2008 9:16 am

In the report to the disciplinary committe, does the referre get to say who instigated the fight, and does the committe look differently on who started the fight?


Put everything you can into a report. The comittee can always choose to disregard something they shouldn't hear about but they can't do anything about things they should be told but which aren't in the report.

Make a note of what occurred straight after the game and include in your report that you made notes in this fashion (it makes it crystal clear that you haven't had an opportunity to forget things) - the same goes for players who may be the subject of a disciplinary hearing or be asked to give an account.
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Postby dblacklock Thu Dec 04, 2008 10:13 pm

There is a now a new Special Incident report that has been created for any incidents (Serious injury, Expulsion other) that occur during your game. Contact your respective Referees Association Secretary for a copy of the Incident Report.

James is correct. Put everthing in the report, but stick to the facts. No conjecture. If a player is cursing at you or threatening you, write down exactly what they said. Remember, these reports are legal documents that could be used in court if needed and as such need to be complete and accurate. Somone needs to be able to pick it up and understand exactly what went on and be able to rule without any further input from the referee.

Referees are often upset if a player gets off without any fine or match ban. This often happens (like in everyday court) when the discplinary committee do not have enough facts to find the accused guilty (I am sure James has a better term). You can't be upset if you did not take the time to properly write the report.

We get a lot of experience writing reports in Canada. In fact there is even a module at our clinics in proper report writing. Referees carry a "riot pad" to take down notes so that when it comes time to file the report they have the facts straight. Reports have to be filed within a fixed time frame and if not, the referee is fined. And we thought we had it tough.
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Postby laxambition Thu Dec 04, 2008 10:31 pm

I have received the report template from Tony Pugh, I have circulated it to the Referees in SEMLA
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Postby FarmerDan Thu Dec 04, 2008 11:58 pm

Tis a good template for reports, makes it far easier.
One thing though, it mentions an automatic three match ban for expulsion and the ref needs to state whether s/he thinks longer is required. Is this a NEMLA thing as last time I looked in the South it was a one match ban automatically with the option to recommend an extension. (Though I'm willing to concede this may have changed as it's been over a year since i last expelled someone - also my only expulsion)
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Postby UKLacrosse Fri Dec 05, 2008 1:00 am

Slightly off-subject, but following recent events in the U19's I queried the ruling on players leaving the bench when a fight starts.

78.2 Where a fight occurs on the field of play, and the officials have “frozen” the benches, by indicating to the team personnel who are on the benches that they should remain there, then any team personnel pushing past an official in order to join in a fight may be expelled from the game.

Its always baffled me why there really is reference to officials freezing the benches. I would guess that when an incident occurs the ref really has to be sharp to remember to do that. Presumably failure to do so means that this rule is invalid? Why isn't the rule ....... no player is permitted to enter the field of play without permission of an official.....? In effect the bench is automatically frozen during such an incident. It seems to me that anyone leaving the bench to join in, or to try to stop a fight invariably makes it worse. Presumably it also mean that the CBO can freeze the bench?
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Postby Blind Zebra Fri Dec 05, 2008 9:35 am

'Bench freezing' is easier to do with a four man refing team. Trail and CBO move in front of the benches, one each, with arms spread calling 'stay on the bench'.

It is trickier to do with one ref and no CBO while managing a fight!

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Postby jameskellam Fri Dec 05, 2008 9:40 am

Two comments on Don's last posting:

When he says write everything down, he means it. Don't p*** (Pass? Push?) about with asterisks, much less euphemisms (if a player calls you a fat b*****d, don't tell the panel "he suggested my parents were not married and I had a fondness for pies").

It's not your job to get a player banned and you shouldn't be disappointed if the committee takes a different view on the facts available. Your job is to present ALL the facts that were available to you (unfavourable to the player concerned AND favourable) so that the DC can make the right decision.
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Postby DanSawyer Sun May 31, 2009 1:27 pm

Expel the third man in (and the fourth and any subsequent).


Sorry to resurrect an old thread, but I've always wondered about this one.

If the 'third man' joins in by way of grabbing one of the fighters and trying to pull him away (whether his own team-mate or not) does he still get punished? Are the other players basically supposed to let them get on with it?

Similarly, and arising out of a case I've seen involving footballers, is one fighter has the other at a real disadvantage, because he's injured or is down etc, is defence of another allowed? Hypothetically, if Red 1 is down and Blue is hitting him with his stick, can Red 2 do anything about it or should he just wait for the ref?
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Postby HawkUK Sun May 31, 2009 6:54 pm

What I got told at my refs course was that the way to think about it is,

If Team A and B are fighting,

Team A's mate rushes in this then looks like a 2v1 against B.

In an ideal match, the player would stay out of it, and leave it to the refs.

But in a game not one player is going to stand by and left a fight happen to one of there team (unless you are playing NLL :D )

You have to use discretion if the 3rd man came in looking to knock bells out of the other man then yer straight off, part of it is down to the player knowing the rules.

I ref NEMLA div 5, if there a fight then I just give them couple minutes to the offending player (see post above), but at a higher level where they should 'know better' then I would have to look at the situation at bit more.
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Postby jameskellam Sun May 31, 2009 9:29 pm

When I say "third man in", I mean that somebody has decided that the one on one fight needs a third participant.
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Postby Mat P Sun May 31, 2009 9:50 pm

Are the rules the same if they are on the same team?
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Postby jameskellam Sun May 31, 2009 9:57 pm

yes. Unsportsmanlike conduct covers it.
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Postby DanSawyer Sun May 31, 2009 11:47 pm

Participant being somebody who intends to fight rather than break it up, then?
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Postby FarmerDan Mon Jun 01, 2009 2:18 am

Bingo, though that is sometimes a fine line to judge - especially if they are having to use a bit of force to break up a serious fight. If you do find yourself in that position then make sure you only use reasonable force to break it up, don't go OTT.
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Postby Mat P Mon Jun 01, 2009 9:54 am

What if they're robots?
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Postby robbo Mon Jun 01, 2009 6:30 pm

I always think 3rd man in rule is an interesting one. I can see the logic in saying that it only applies to a third man coming in to join the fight as you don't want to toss someone unnecessarily. When I used to ref hockey in this country, it was a blanket rule. The third person to enter an altercations was tossed - no matter the intentions. The rationale? Sometimes it's difficult to distinguish a players intentions. Also, stops things escalating - as has been said earlier if you see (as you would perceive it) two opposition players fighting one of your players, what would be you instinct? To even up the numbers. Then how about this, the third man in goes in to break it up and restrains one of the players whilst trying to help. He cannot now defend himself and gets on landed on him - the third man in has added weight to one side of the altercation. I've seem some really nasty incidents in hockey that have resulted from a third player entering the altercation. I think that a third player in should carry an automatic expulsion no matter what the reason. Doing so makes the ref's job easier and stops rucks.

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