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U19 - Thoughts and comments

Any posts on the Under 19's World Games in here please.

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Re: U19 - Thoughts and comments

Postby UKLaxfan Tue Jul 24, 2012 12:52 pm

UKLacrosse wrote:Especially when they ended up with 2 carrying injuries? Didn't a short stick pick up a pole in one game?


#11 Sam Dexter played long pole in one game
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Re: U19 - Thoughts and comments

Postby young_trig Tue Jul 24, 2012 1:05 pm

UKLaxfan wrote:
UKLacrosse wrote:Especially when they ended up with 2 carrying injuries? Didn't a short stick pick up a pole in one game?


#11 Sam Dexter played long pole in one game


Which game?
How did he do?
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Re: U19 - Thoughts and comments

Postby Moaning Git Tue Jul 24, 2012 3:53 pm

A personal opinion and observation. I think in international games especially those where the refs are being assessed, a D pole is far more likely to receive a flag for a hold or a slash on a move that might simply be ignored in a national league game. In Amsterdam a number of the USA based coaches were complaining about the penalties that were being called in the International games, and they certainly said to me that they thought the Refereeing in the Festival was far more fluid and what they would experience in the States.

That is not to say I think I or any Festival Ref was a better ref than the international crew, far from it, but I do think that as the level of the game steps up so does the standard of refereeing, and a stricter adherence to the rules is applied, if for no other reason for consistency. How teams respond to this change can be very important and In Amsterdam I think England Seniors were slow to adapt, in Turku I think especially in the Australia game there were problems in the first half for England, that were far better controlled in the second while Australia just lost their discipline, and it cost them!

As the interpretations tighten up then it becomes far more difficult for the D man and you will see an increase in holds being called, I noticed a number of interference calls in the Turku games that may have not been called in the home leagues. That said, and to the credit of the refs there were a large number of contacts by long poles against helmets, accidental and caused by an attempt at a legitimate stick check for example that might have been called (and possibly would more than likely been called in a UK league) but were not.

It is not the poles that worry me in the penalty call issue, it is usually the short sticks who come running in from behind with their hands three foot apart to smack the ball carrier in the back then argue when they are called for a cross check. Or who simply decide to let rip at a ref for a suppossed missed call. These are discipline issues. As I say I think there was a potential problem against the Aussies that was dealt with effecively by the coaches, but it is an issue within the English game that we all see far too often.

Getting the refereeing "right" is an issue that will never be resolved. The now famous or infamous Iroquois hidden ball goal was a touch of flair and genius that if you were neutral or shouting for the Iroquois added an wholly exciting element to the game. If you were a USA fan, it was unsportsmanlike conduct that should have been penalised, and an appalling refereeing error, but thats lacrosse.... and long may it continue!
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Re: U19 - Thoughts and comments

Postby laxambition Tue Jul 24, 2012 4:28 pm

Moaning Git wrote:The now famous or infamous Iroquois hidden ball goal was a touch of flair and genius that if you were neutral or shouting for the Iroquois added an wholly exciting element to the game. If you were a USA fan, it was unsportsmanlike conduct that should have been penalised, and an appalling refereeing error, but thats lacrosse.... and long may it continue!


Can you expand on how/why this was unsportsmanlike conduct and/or a refereeing error?

Was anyone on the USA team penalised for going after the wrong man, or had the goal already been scored before any D-man interfered with the non ball carrier?
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Re: U19 - Thoughts and comments

Postby Moaning Git Tue Jul 24, 2012 7:55 pm

I am not claiming it was unsportsmanlike, but if you read the American Forums and Facebook comments at the time you will see the claims, which I happen to think are wrong.

The refing errors, 1) the ball went out of play from a shot so should have been given to the nearest player as the ball crosses the line, the recording seems to indicate this was a USA player 2) At the whistle there should have been no player within 5 yards of the ball carrier again look at the recording 3) The ref should have indicated who had the ball, it seems he fell for the trick and did not check who had the ball before restrting play. Again look on the US sites for comments.
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Re: U19 - Thoughts and comments

Postby UKLaxfan Tue Jul 24, 2012 8:32 pm

The hidden ball trick was a very creative play

The guy who faked the pick up and ran off cradling was not within 5 yards of the ball when #42 really did pick the ball up.

The ball was just sitting there on the ground

#15 Ky Tarbell tried this a number of times but it only worked vs USA

three USA defenders were chasing #15 and fouled him even if he did have the ball ... No Call

The referee did not fall for it as he was watching the ball on the ground and when #42 Brendan Bomberry picked it up he let play go on as no infringement had taken place.

Just because people on US Forums were not happy doesn't not mean it was an illegal play.
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Re: U19 - Thoughts and comments

Postby Moaning Git Tue Jul 24, 2012 9:16 pm

Errrr that is not the point, the ball went out of play, there needed to be a whistle to restart play and the referee should have indicated the ball carrier, if what you say is what happened the referee is still at fault. I have not got access to a PC that shows film at the moment so I cannot really comment further.

The photos taken by Brendan Bomberry's father tend to indicate he was within 5 yards of Ky at the start of the play

Also you make no comment on the possession call when the ball crossed the line was it USA or Iroquois?

Personally I do not think it was an illegal play, however I do think there was at least one official's error, so I think some USA fans have got a point. But it does not really matter, it happened its gone and whatever the rights and wrongs I enjoyed it.
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Re: U19 - Thoughts and comments

Postby Moaning Git Tue Jul 24, 2012 9:26 pm

https://fbcdn-sphotos-a.akamaihd.net/hp ... 5220_n.jpg

Not sure if this link will work, the red line is the sideline

https://fbcdn-sphotos-a.akamaihd.net/hp ... 4428_n.jpg

an example of what we discussed earlier.
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Re: U19 - Thoughts and comments

Postby rpowell Tue Jul 24, 2012 9:28 pm

The possession call before the play - just watched the video again, and what happened was that although the US player was nearest when the ball went out after the shot, he had put a foot on the line a few seconds before. The CBO made the offside call and indicated an Iroquois ball. Officials got that right.
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Re: U19 - Thoughts and comments

Postby rpowell Tue Jul 24, 2012 9:46 pm

OK, onto the restart of the play.

Both the Rules and the Referee Manual state that the goalkeeper must be informed of the position of the ball at the restart. The way I've been taught is to do this _any_ time the ball is in the attacking half. So if the ball is 3/4 of a field away, don't bother, but if it's on the centreline, do. Already we're doing something slightly different from what the rules say, but it seems common sense.

But talking to referees from outside the UK, I get the impression that in some countries, they only indicate location of the ball when the ball is relatively near the goal - 20 or 30 yards, say? Perhaps a difference of interpretation.

(And yes, there was a player within 5 yards when play restarted...)
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Re: U19 - Thoughts and comments

Postby Moaning Git Tue Jul 24, 2012 9:58 pm

Nice spot RP. Wish I could watch the game again
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Re: U19 - Thoughts and comments

Postby bobby09 Wed Jul 25, 2012 9:42 am

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=cHQyuPAkzFs

there is the clip for anyone who wants to make there own mind up on the play, not a great clip though.
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Re: U19 - Thoughts and comments

Postby laxambition Wed Jul 25, 2012 1:49 pm

As bobby09 says, the video clip is not great, however, what can be seen is:

Notwithstanding that the referee did not notify the goalkeeper which player was going to restart with the ball (his first mistake), play was restarted with the ball stationary on the floor - i.e. no player had possession, and so-called "team possession" does not count in this situation - (his second mistake) and even had it been in someone's possession, there was at least one player within 5 yards of the restart (his third mistake).

HOWEVER:

All this is seen with the benefit of slow motion replay, and a comfy (ish) chair in an office, not under the immense pressure of a major game at a World Championships
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Re: U19 - Thoughts and comments

Postby Moaning Git Wed Jul 25, 2012 2:38 pm

Yes, I did not intend it to seem that I was slagging off the ref. My point was that the same incident is viewed in very different ways depending on your stand point. Postings above as examples! Lol
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Re: U19 - Thoughts and comments

Postby LPierce Thu Jul 26, 2012 12:18 am

Personally I don't feel the Iroquois did anything wrong by using the hidden ball trick and I would be extremely surprised if the Americans who complained about it being unsportsmanlike etc hadn't written in another post about how awesome the UMD vs UNC one was. I daresay if the USA had scored such a goal they would likewise be raving about it.

On the subject of the referee getting the calls wrong I am in complete agreement with the comment made by laxambition, and it is easy to make a (or even a few) slip ups which will be questioned by people. The referee was in the wrong but if play is allowed to begin then in such a high profile game I don't blame the Iroquois players one bit for taking advantage of the situation. It isn't their fault if the referee fails to notify the keeper and questioning the sportsmanship of a player for playing to the whistle is unfair.
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Re: U19 - Thoughts and comments

Postby Wacs10 Thu Jul 26, 2012 11:57 am

It really comes down to the level of competition that we have at home and the need to step up that much more when we get to a World Championships, you can get away with sloppy play here and the realisation of game speed, technique and the steps you need to make to be competitive in a World Championship takes time and mental strength! Playing day after day isn't easy and what we don't see as a supporter is players on treatment tables, playing through injury and suffering mental stress as 17-19 year olds! these are young men and takes a lot of man management by teh coaches and managers to get them through!

We need to put players in this situation much more not only to see who performs at this level but who can handle it mentally and physically!

Ideas to improve this are more tours to the US & Canada, invitational tournaments in the UK that can not only get our teams this level of competition but also give our younger players a yard stick and inspiration to play for England.
Knowledge sharing from past tours as to what to expect and analysis of each tour of what we did well and what we can improve on.

You watch the Iroquois, USA, Canada and even Australia and they all have their own style and identity, we try to do a bit of everything but I really believe that we need to find our style! There are a lot of things that go in our favour such as two way middies, scap and grit, great Goalies and face off men is a strength and playing International rules on a week to week basis!

We have a lot of talent at this age and I know from experience that our athletes at 16-17 are as good as anyone else, US and Canadian based players make their improvement on the Travel team circuit and recruitment tournaments, in their sr year of high school and then college!

Why don't we try getting more young Ice Hockey players involved in Lacrosse?
Last edited by Wacs10 on Thu Jul 26, 2012 5:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: U19 - Thoughts and comments

Postby Dining Room Thu Jul 26, 2012 4:37 pm

With regards to the 5 long pole situation - Coach G has a reputation of choosing the best players within a squad rather than positional specialisms:

In Rochdale's 4th place Premiership finish and Senior Flags Final appearance in the Prem 2 seasons ago - the defence had an attacker in it , the LSM was an attacking middie and I was on the a-team :D This allowed the 13 best players at the time to play each week rather than the 4pole, 5middie, 3attack choices made previously...................

Possibly only found that 5 long sticks fitted in their plans?
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Re: U19 - Thoughts and comments

Postby davidmcculloch81 Thu Jul 26, 2012 5:31 pm

Did you have to give your Rochdale First Team water bottle back?
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Re: U19 - Thoughts and comments

Postby Dining Room Fri Jul 27, 2012 4:48 pm

davidmcculloch81 wrote:Did you have to give your Rochdale First Team water bottle back?


in effect, yes: copied the usual behaviour witnessed at most clubs: stopped training, started rumours of a the 1st team "click" whilst questioning selection policy, match-fees and why "they" have more water bottles than us lower-orders, newer kit and listened to music before games.
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Re: U19 - Thoughts and comments

Postby snooplax Sat Jul 28, 2012 12:58 am

Dining Room wrote:
in effect, yes: copied the usual behaviour witnessed at most clubs: stopped training, started rumours of a the 1st team "click" whilst questioning selection policy, match-fees and why "they" have more water bottles than us lower-orders, newer kit and listened to music before games.


LOL

Maybe the funniest thing ever on the forum

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