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The Great Big Bad Durham Thread

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Re: The Great Big Bad Durham Thread

Postby Sour37 Thu Feb 17, 2011 8:51 pm

Durham do something similar - coached about 2500 kids last year if memory serves

They also coach the colleges' mixed teams
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Re: The Great Big Bad Durham Thread

Postby Tree13 Thu Feb 17, 2011 9:57 pm

david s wrote:
UKLaxfan wrote:that attitude put the Great in Great Britain, and if around 70 years ago we'd all be speaking German now


Only a matter of time before we reached 'Godwin's Law'...

Expected more from UKLaxFan.

I don't see why, considering his contribution to this thread so far.
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Re: The Great Big Bad Durham Thread

Postby Tree13 Thu Feb 17, 2011 10:06 pm

rpowell wrote:Before I start, I have to say I agree with you - people need to just live with it. there's as much chance of limiting North American players as there is of limiting players from Greater Manchester

Disagree. If enough BUCS member institutions complained, and the correct channels were followed and the relevant paperwork completed, is it not true that BUCS would consider introducing a rule SPECIFIC to the competition?
rpowell wrote:
the pom wrote:either accept it or

all other teams just dont play them give them a walk over every game and play for second.

in a knock out who ever should have played them in the final plays the winner of 2nd and third place.

simple

But, this is not an option! If you don't turn up for a match in BUCS, you get in trouble. You can lose additional points; if you miss both matches against Durham in the Northern Premier, that could be enough for exclusion from the knock-out stages, or even relegation.

Just to play Devil's Advocate..... If every team in BUCS North Prem were to concede ALL their games against Durham, in advance, then BUCS would be forced to do something..... and I somehow doubt that their answer would be to demote all the other teams and leave Durham in North Prem on their own. If not, well Durham will win the title by walkover - much like they're going to anyway, with all due respect to every other team.
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Re: The Great Big Bad Durham Thread

Postby Tree13 Thu Feb 17, 2011 10:19 pm

UKLaxfan wrote:Wow!

great attitude, if you can't beat them don't play them :evil:

Were you the kid who took your ball home and you didn't win?

Nobody would ever play Stockport, USA, or Cheshire

why not decide the League by who has the shiniest kit?

that attitude put the Great in Great Britain, and if around 70 years ago we'd all be speaking German now

In reply, specifically to the comment re no-one ever playing Stockport et al let me draw everyone's attention to a thread elsewhere on this very forum: viewtopic.php?f=5&t=14189
and your contribution, advocating that Stockport should REFUSE to play Durham Uni if the fixture is ever proposed:
UKLaxfan wrote:I think it is a wise decision for Stockport not to play Durham University for Stockport's benefit

There is nothing to gain and everything to lose.

ATM Stockport can finish undefeated as League & Flags winners & win the Iroquois Cup + Wilkinson Sword Trophy on Top

Which would be a tremendous achievement

Losing to Durham University (BUCS Champions) would take some of the gloss off that achievement.

In summary, you seem to believe that it's wrong for the other BUCS unis to even consider conceding to Durham, even though the results of these fixtures are a foregone conclusion.... But Stockport, arguably the best club side in the UK and one that you imply would never get a game if people were able to concede out of fear of losing, should REFUSE to play Durham.... because they might lose.

Genius. I bask in the hilarity of your hypocrisy.
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Re: The Great Big Bad Durham Thread

Postby chippie Thu Feb 17, 2011 10:31 pm

Tree13 wrote:Disagree. If enough BUCS member institutions complained, and the correct channels were followed and the relevant paperwork completed, is it not true that BUCS would consider introducing a rule SPECIFIC to the competition?


does that set the scene for every sport/uni trying to get what they want....there is being democratic and then there is stopping people from finding different ways to win...at the end of the day university sport is still amateur, you cant stop people who are eligible to play from playing no matter where they come from....

[/quote]
Just to play Devil's Advocate..... If every team in BUCS North Prem were to concede ALL their games against Durham, in advance, then BUCS would be forced to do something..... and I somehow doubt that their answer would be to demote all the other teams and leave Durham in North Prem on their own. If not, well Durham will win the title by walkover - much like they're going to anyway, with all due respect to every other team.[/quote]

not really....if teams give walkovers for no reason they face punishments i think that includes fines...so all that will happen is that AU's wont enter mens lax leagues.....who suffers then? not durham, just makes it easier for them!!

maybe people could start demonstrations and riots and that will remove durham from the league....seems to be working in north africa.....JOKE!!
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Re: The Great Big Bad Durham Thread

Postby the pom Thu Feb 17, 2011 10:48 pm

UKLaxfan wrote:
the pom wrote:either accept it or

all other teams just dont play them give them a walk over every game and play for second.

in a knock out who ever should have played them in the final plays the winner of 2nd and third place.

simple

Wow!

great attitude, if you can't beat them don't play them :evil:

Were you the kid who took your ball home and you didn't win?

Nobody would ever play Stockport, USA, or Cheshire

why not decide the League by who has the shiniest kit?

that attitude put the Great in Great Britain, and if around 70 years ago we'd all be speaking German now


Say for example Cheshire Stockport and the USA are all beatable and have been in recent times they also have had close run games

but as I see it I don’t care about this Durham team but the majority of the uni teams do as I believe the majority of the these teams are filled with freshers or players of limited experience. They do not need a 30-0 game

For example if a team in nemla suddenly had a large amount of cash and filled its team with Mll player there would be a lot of complaining.

But my comments are based on do something about it or shut up

Also If we stood toe to toe with the Germans 70 years ago we would have lost it was novel tactics and innovation (eg radar) that means we are not eating sour kraut

if durham want to play good lax the should join nemla and work ther way up
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Re: The Great Big Bad Durham Thread

Postby rpowell Thu Feb 17, 2011 11:18 pm

Tree13 wrote:
rpowell wrote:Before I start, I have to say I agree with you - people need to just live with it. there's as much chance of limiting North American players as there is of limiting players from Greater Manchester

Disagree. If enough BUCS member institutions complained, and the correct channels were followed and the relevant paperwork completed, is it not true that BUCS would consider introducing a rule SPECIFIC to the competition?

BUCS have lots of sport-specific rules, and it is possible to petition the Lacrosse Management Group for extra regulations. But BUCS would veto any sport-specific rule which excluded students who qualify by their own eligibility criteria (general regulations 7.1 and 7.2). They won't limit the number of Irish students in Gaelic Football teams, they won't limit the number of Dutch folk in Korfball teams, nor the number of Japanese in Judo squads. Not even the number of Californians in Surfing :)

Tree13 wrote:
rpowell wrote:But, this is not an option! If you don't turn up for a match in BUCS, you get in trouble. You can lose additional points; if you miss both matches against Durham in the Northern Premier, that could be enough for exclusion from the knock-out stages, or even relegation.

Just to play Devil's Advocate..... If every team in BUCS North Prem were to concede ALL their games against Durham, in advance, then BUCS would be forced to do something..... and I somehow doubt that their answer would be to demote all the other teams and leave Durham in North Prem on their own. If not, well Durham will win the title by walkover - much like they're going to anyway, with all due respect to every other team.

Ah, but you're thinking like a lacrosse player, not an administrator. The progression would actually go like this:

(1) First time you concede, BUCS kick your athletic union, and they kick your lacrosse club. Lose a couple of points, no big deal.
(2) At the second concession, you are excluded from the knock-out rounds of the the Championship, regardless of where you finish in the league, you lose any BUCS points you might have got. BUCS phone your Athletic Union and have a frank exchange of views, threatening further league point deductions, fines, and loss of overall BUCS points. Next your Athletic Union ask your president/captain/secretary in for a chat. You explain your reasoning, they say "thank you so much for your principled stand, your club are no longer part of the University. Best of luck with whatever league you intend to play in next year, hope you find a venue for your training and matches, but it isn't going to be on Univesity facilities..."
(3) Meanwhile, BUCS move the next four or five teams from the Southern Premier or other regional leagues to the Championship knockout stages.

You need your Athletic Union but they don't need you. Just give those hockey/football/rugby types an excuse to get rid of you... and see how much support you get from them :(
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Re: The Great Big Bad Durham Thread

Postby Tommy88 Fri Feb 18, 2011 1:00 am

rpowell wrote:
Tree13 wrote:
rpowell wrote:Before I start, I have to say I agree with you - people need to just live with it. there's as much chance of limiting North American players as there is of limiting players from Greater Manchester

Disagree. If enough BUCS member institutions complained, and the correct channels were followed and the relevant paperwork completed, is it not true that BUCS would consider introducing a rule SPECIFIC to the competition?

BUCS have lots of sport-specific rules, and it is possible to petition the Lacrosse Management Group for extra regulations. But BUCS would veto any sport-specific rule which excluded students who qualify by their own eligibility criteria (general regulations 7.1 and 7.2). They won't limit the number of Irish students in Gaelic Football teams, they won't limit the number of Dutch folk in Korfball teams, nor the number of Japanese in Judo squads. Not even the number of Californians in Surfing :)

Tree13 wrote:
rpowell wrote:But, this is not an option! If you don't turn up for a match in BUCS, you get in trouble. You can lose additional points; if you miss both matches against Durham in the Northern Premier, that could be enough for exclusion from the knock-out stages, or even relegation.

Just to play Devil's Advocate..... If every team in BUCS North Prem were to concede ALL their games against Durham, in advance, then BUCS would be forced to do something..... and I somehow doubt that their answer would be to demote all the other teams and leave Durham in North Prem on their own. If not, well Durham will win the title by walkover - much like they're going to anyway, with all due respect to every other team.

Ah, but you're thinking like a lacrosse player, not an administrator. The progression would actually go like this:

(1) First time you concede, BUCS kick your athletic union, and they kick your lacrosse club. Lose a couple of points, no big deal.
(2) At the second concession, you are excluded from the knock-out rounds of the the Championship, regardless of where you finish in the league, you lose any BUCS points you might have got. BUCS phone your Athletic Union and have a frank exchange of views, threatening further league point deductions, fines, and loss of overall BUCS points. Next your Athletic Union ask your president/captain/secretary in for a chat. You explain your reasoning, they say "thank you so much for your principled stand, your club are no longer part of the University. Best of luck with whatever league you intend to play in next year, hope you find a venue for your training and matches, but it isn't going to be on Univesity facilities..."
(3) Meanwhile, BUCS move the next four or five teams from the Southern Premier or other regional leagues to the Championship knockout stages.

You need your Athletic Union but they don't need you. Just give those hockey/football/rugby types an excuse to get rid of you... and see how much support you get from them :(


Let's pull away from this argument about restricting the number of "American" players on a team, or anyone of any particular nationality playing a sport which is played at a much higher standard in their country. The 'cap' I believe most people are referring to is for scholarship NCAA standard lacrosse players, not just people who are from America and can play lacrosse. I can play football, I played for my school, I play for an intramural team...I'm not on the books for Manchester United (such as Oxford have guys who played lax at school, Durham have an MLL player). Say this cap for NCAA standard players brought over on scholarships was imposed, which I believe is the rite thing to do, others may not, entitled to their opinion, it would be interesting to see if any Americans, who played NCAA, came over on full fees just because they heard that Durham were a good school and the lacrosse was very good. Thought I would put that question into the mixer....and yes conceding is not an option as far as AU's are concerned.
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Re: The Great Big Bad Durham Thread

Postby Tree13 Fri Feb 18, 2011 1:34 am

rpowell wrote:
Tree13 wrote:
rpowell wrote:But, this is not an option! If you don't turn up for a match in BUCS, you get in trouble. You can lose additional points; if you miss both matches against Durham in the Northern Premier, that could be enough for exclusion from the knock-out stages, or even relegation.

Just to play Devil's Advocate..... If every team in BUCS North Prem were to concede ALL their games against Durham, in advance, then BUCS would be forced to do something..... and I somehow doubt that their answer would be to demote all the other teams and leave Durham in North Prem on their own. If not, well Durham will win the title by walkover - much like they're going to anyway, with all due respect to every other team.

Ah, but you're thinking like a lacrosse player, not an administrator. The progression would actually go like this:

(1) First time you concede, BUCS kick your athletic union, and they kick your lacrosse club. Lose a couple of points, no big deal.
(2) At the second concession, you are excluded from the knock-out rounds of the the Championship, regardless of where you finish in the league, you lose any BUCS points you might have got. BUCS phone your Athletic Union and have a frank exchange of views, threatening further league point deductions, fines, and loss of overall BUCS points. Next your Athletic Union ask your president/captain/secretary in for a chat. You explain your reasoning, they say "thank you so much for your principled stand, your club are no longer part of the University. Best of luck with whatever league you intend to play in next year, hope you find a venue for your training and matches, but it isn't going to be on Univesity facilities..."
(3) Meanwhile, BUCS move the next four or five teams from the Southern Premier or other regional leagues to the Championship knockout stages.

You need your Athletic Union but they don't need you. Just give those hockey/football/rugby types an excuse to get rid of you... and see how much support you get from them :(

If you were simply to concede in the week running up to the fixture, yes.

But I did state EVERY team conceding IN ADVANCE. By implication this would involve each team going to their respective AU's and outlining the situation and asking the AU's to contact each other, confirm each other's respective positions and then as a group submit notification in advance to BUCS of each team's intent to concede all games involving Durham, unless BUCS does something to alter the current situation. Upon hearing of this scenario (by being told about by the teams concerned) I would hope that the Southern prem/other regional league teams would communicate their support for the north prem's stance. The key to it all is doing it iN ADVANCE... straight after this year's final would be a good point.

Throwing a club out of the AU isn't as quick and easy as you'd think, and many posters in this thread are of the opinion that their respective AU's value the BUCS points accrued by their lacrosse teams, even if they aren't the division winners or championship winners. Apparently BUCS points = funding from central government (news to me) so does that imply that the AU's DO need their clubs, and as many of them as possible? Furthermore, the opportunity to break Durham's stranglehold on BUCS North Prem AND the national championship would presumably appeal to the AU's who know that on a level playing field their lacrosse teams would be contenders for both these positions and the associated BUCS points.

If coordinated properly and timed correctly, the AU's acting collectively would force BUCS' hand. Hypothetically speaking.
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Re: The Great Big Bad Durham Thread

Postby chippie Fri Feb 18, 2011 1:46 am

Tommy88 wrote:Let's pull away from this argument about restricting the number of "American" players on a team, or anyone of any particular nationality playing a sport which is played at a much higher standard in their country. The 'cap' I believe most people are referring to is for scholarship NCAA standard lacrosse players, not just people who are from America and can play lacrosse. I can play football, I played for my school, I play for an intramural team...I'm not on the books for Manchester United (such as Oxford have guys who played lax at school, Durham have an MLL player). Say this cap for NCAA standard players brought over on scholarships was imposed, which I believe is the rite thing to do, others may not, entitled to their opinion, it would be interesting to see if any Americans, who played NCAA, came over on full fees just because they heard that Durham were a good school and the lacrosse was very good. Thought I would put that question into the mixer....and yes conceding is not an option as far as AU's are concerned.


who would judge if a player was NCAA standard?
and rather capping based on nationality, your doing it based on the fact someone went to uni and experienced something they might enjoy

are we forgetting that the guys and girls who come over to durham still have to pay a lot of money to do so....im sure if they really wanted to they could spend that money on doing something in the states, but they have an opportunity offered to them by an institution to get some postgrad qualifications and have a chance of playing sport

they prob wont be here if that opportunity wasnt given to them, BUT IT HAS.....on the other-side, oxford get americans because it is OXFORD not because of lacrosse.... im sure most unis at some point have picked one or two decent yank players i know we have at birmingham....

MLL or not, these kids still have to do academics, they may get some extra help/time but academics comes first.....i know one of their players missed a match because they couldnt miss that course day...!!

at least durham have 3 teams so that other players can play....if they only put out 1 team and stopped less experienced players from having an opportunity then that would be bad....

unfortunately you wont be able to govern how/what each uni does in each sport to get an advantage
almost every uni does it to some extent in a sport
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Re: The Great Big Bad Durham Thread

Postby chippie Fri Feb 18, 2011 1:56 am

are you for real??

Tree13 wrote: But I did state EVERY team conceding IN ADVANCE. By implication this would involve each team going to their respective AU's and outlining the situation and asking the AU's to contact each other, confirm each other's respective positions and then as a group submit notification in advance to BUCS of each team's intent to concede all games involving Durham, unless BUCS does something to alter the current situation. Upon hearing of this scenario (by being told about by the teams concerned) I would hope that the Southern prem/other regional league teams would communicate their support for the north prem's stance. The key to it all is doing it iN ADVANCE... straight after this year's final would be a good point.

Throwing a club out of the AU isn't as quick and easy as you'd think, and many posters in this thread are of the opinion that their respective AU's value the BUCS points accrued by their lacrosse teams, even if they aren't the division winners or championship winners. Apparently BUCS points = funding from central government (news to me) so does that imply that the AU's DO need their clubs, and as many of them as possible? Furthermore, the opportunity to break Durham's stranglehold on BUCS North Prem AND the national championship would presumably appeal to the AU's who know that on a level playing field their lacrosse teams would be contenders for both these positions and the associated BUCS points.

If coordinated properly and timed correctly, the AU's acting collectively would force BUCS' hand. Hypothetically speaking.


what is the exact situ you want BUCS to alter??
that no team can have x number of experienced players from another country who have played longer than x number of players....??
or that no uni can use its resources how ever way it wants??

im guessing after lacrosse you intend to target those uni's who have/bring in x number of foreign experienced players in sports such as basketball, netball, rowing etc....

i would love to hear your reasons to your AU....
"you are giving a walkover because you object to the fact they can put out a team of americans...."
ok...as they have done nothing outside of the rules, we will back you on that....

as much as i dislike the fact durham can do this....we have no right to tell them they cant! and some of the suggestions are getting redic, and that is why im out!
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Re: The Great Big Bad Durham Thread

Postby Mort rotu Fri Feb 18, 2011 9:09 am

This whole thread smacks of bad sportsmanship and people having a tantrum because they can't win.

In the time I have left at Uni there will be no opportunity for me to play against such a high calibre opposition as Durham. I envy you guys who do get to play them.

Over the course of that 1 game, if everybody takes the correct attitude onto the pitch, the teams game WILL improve. The face off guy might learn a few tricks if he pays attention, the rest of the team will see how a decent clear works, how decent attacking plays work, how decent team defence works.

If you can get the right attitude across to the entire team then any game against any opposition will be worth while, irrespective of your anticipated scoreline.

You cannot and should not limit participation based on nationality. Its against the league rules and is a kind of discrimination. To make an direct analogy are you going to propose that black people shouldn't be allowed to play university basketball because they can (supposedly) jump higher than white people? I bet none of you would dare suggest that to your AU...

I have always been taught that you do not concede a game simply because you expect the team to beat you, if this were the case then I would have recommended to Southampton that we just don't bother this year, put our sticks on ebay and forget about it.

This is entirely accurate, and if our AU president hadn't played lacrosse with us last year part 2 is probably what we would be facing now:
rpowell wrote:Ah, but you're thinking like a lacrosse player, not an administrator. The progression would actually go like this:

(1) First time you concede, BUCS kick your athletic union, and they kick your lacrosse club. Lose a couple of points, no big deal.
(2) At the second concession, you are excluded from the knock-out rounds of the the Championship, regardless of where you finish in the league, you lose any BUCS points you might have got. BUCS phone your Athletic Union and have a frank exchange of views, threatening further league point deductions, fines, and loss of overall BUCS points. Next your Athletic Union ask your president/captain/secretary in for a chat. You explain your reasoning, they say "thank you so much for your principled stand, your club are no longer part of the University. Best of luck with whatever league you intend to play in next year, hope you find a venue for your training and matches, but it isn't going to be on University facilities..."
(3) Meanwhile, BUCS move the next four or five teams from the Southern Premier or other regional leagues to the Championship knockout stages.

You need your Athletic Union but they don't need you. Just give those hockey/football/rugby types an excuse to get rid of you... and see how much support you get from them :(


In short, man up, stop whining, play the team in front of you, If they're better than you learn from them.

UKLF and Tree, quit snapping at each other, it detracts greatly from any valid point(s) you make.

Finally, if any team has a post grad course in electron microscopy or grazing incidence X-ray techniques (or anything else that I can legitimately claim as relevant to my PhD) and fancies an extra long pole for a game against Durham, drop me a PM.
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Re: The Great Big Bad Durham Thread

Postby rpowell Fri Feb 18, 2011 10:03 am

Tree13 wrote:
rpowell wrote:Ah, but you're thinking like a lacrosse player, not an administrator. The progression would actually go like this:

(1) First time you concede, BUCS kick your athletic union, and they kick your lacrosse club. Lose a couple of points, no big deal.
(2) At the second concession, you are excluded from the knock-out rounds of the the Championship, regardless of where you finish in the league, you lose any BUCS points you might have got. BUCS phone your Athletic Union and have a frank exchange of views, threatening further league point deductions, fines, and loss of overall BUCS points. Next your Athletic Union ask your president/captain/secretary in for a chat. You explain your reasoning, they say "thank you so much for your principled stand, your club are no longer part of the University. Best of luck with whatever league you intend to play in next year, hope you find a venue for your training and matches, but it isn't going to be on Univesity facilities..."
(3) Meanwhile, BUCS move the next four or five teams from the Southern Premier or other regional leagues to the Championship knockout stages.

You need your Athletic Union but they don't need you. Just give those hockey/football/rugby types an excuse to get rid of you... and see how much support you get from them :(

If you were simply to concede in the week running up to the fixture, yes.

But I did state EVERY team conceding IN ADVANCE. By implication this would involve each team going to their respective AU's and outlining the situation and asking the AU's to contact each other, confirm each other's respective positions and then as a group submit notification in advance to BUCS of each team's intent to concede all games involving Durham, unless BUCS does something to alter the current situation. Upon hearing of this scenario (by being told about by the teams concerned) I would hope that the Southern prem/other regional league teams would communicate their support for the north prem's stance. The key to it all is doing it iN ADVANCE... straight after this year's final would be a good point.

Throwing a club out of the AU isn't as quick and easy as you'd think, and many posters in this thread are of the opinion that their respective AU's value the BUCS points accrued by their lacrosse teams, even if they aren't the division winners or championship winners. Apparently BUCS points = funding from central government (news to me) so does that imply that the AU's DO need their clubs, and as many of them as possible? Furthermore, the opportunity to break Durham's stranglehold on BUCS North Prem AND the national championship would presumably appeal to the AU's who know that on a level playing field their lacrosse teams would be contenders for both these positions and the associated BUCS points.

If coordinated properly and timed correctly, the AU's acting collectively would force BUCS' hand. Hypothetically speaking.

Nope - advance doesn't make any difference. Have a read of the rules and regulations on the BUCS website. It doesn't matter whether you fail to fulfil a fixture with 1 hours notice or 1 year. Same penalties!

And conceding in advance might even be worse - BUCS could view that as wilful and deliberate violation of their rules, and really get medieval on you and your AU.

Remember that even if the AUs do value the men's lacrosse club, as soon as you fail to fulfil that second premier league fixture, you lose all points that year. You trust your AU to back you up then? They could use any money or facilities you get for other clubs - tiddlywinks, synchronised swimming, rhythmic gymnastics...

Take that step back, remembering that we are a small sport (albeit growing quickly), and that BUCS and its predecessors have been round for longer than most university lacrosse players have been alive :)

Most of these ideas will have been tried in other sports in previous years, and the rules have been adjusted to make sure that such gestures are not worth the pain. I'm sure there will have been times in the past where someone said "don't fancy travelling to get a kicking from Loughborough Hockey", or "Durham away in Rugby? Nah, let 'em have the points". Hence the regulations have been adapated to make them pretty well bulletproof.
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Re: The Great Big Bad Durham Thread

Postby LaxinLizzy101 Fri Feb 18, 2011 10:13 am

Tree13 wrote:If you were simply to concede in the week running up to the fixture, yes.

But I did state EVERY team conceding IN ADVANCE. By implication this would involve each team going to their respective AU's and outlining the situation and asking the AU's to contact each other, confirm each other's respective positions and then as a group submit notification in advance to BUCS of each team's intent to concede all games involving Durham, unless BUCS does something to alter the current situation. Upon hearing of this scenario (by being told about by the teams concerned) I would hope that the Southern prem/other regional league teams would communicate their support for the north prem's stance. The key to it all is doing it iN ADVANCE... straight after this year's final would be a good point.

Throwing a club out of the AU isn't as quick and easy as you'd think, and many posters in this thread are of the opinion that their respective AU's value the BUCS points accrued by their lacrosse teams, even if they aren't the division winners or championship winners. Apparently BUCS points = funding from central government (news to me) so does that imply that the AU's DO need their clubs, and as many of them as possible? Furthermore, the opportunity to break Durham's stranglehold on BUCS North Prem AND the national championship would presumably appeal to the AU's who know that on a level playing field their lacrosse teams would be contenders for both these positions and the associated BUCS points.

If coordinated properly and timed correctly, the AU's acting collectively would force BUCS' hand. Hypothetically speaking.


Tree 13, I'm sure you wouldn't give up and roll over that easily :wink:
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Re: The Great Big Bad Durham Thread

Postby MarcDenman Fri Feb 18, 2011 1:52 pm

This thread just appears to be going round and round in circles, it is quite entertaining to watch.

I can't say that I've ever played Durham, can't say that I ever will. My Uni can't afford to put us into BUCS, leaving the club itself to pay SEMLA league fees, £70 a day minibus hire plus fuel on top only to be thrashed in each and every game, but we do it for the love of the game. So please before whining about BUCS and deciding that the best course of action would to simply not play the games, remember that BUCS is a privilege.

However saying that I can see why people are slightly peeved, it is important to remember that Lacrosse is a developing sport. I'm pretty sure the number of people who join Lacrosse that have never picked up a stick before strongly outweighs the number of people who have, though of course this balance is changing all the time. Why is this important? I am pretty sure it is safe to say that each American player Durham brings over will have a minimum of 6 years experience playing, as well as playing at a higher level. So when English players reach their third and final year of Uni each player will have 3 years experience. So you have got a team with at least twice the experience of the opposition, playing at what is probably a lower level.

It may not be against the rules but it doesn't feel particularly sporting to me.

To those that argue: "You know what you are up against, there is nothing stopping you training 6 days a week" and "they are Uni students too, they have exactly the same schedules as well". I went to Uni, like I would imagine a great deal of my counterparts, with the ambition to improve myself academically and to leave with a nice shiny degree. Not spending every waking moment training in an attempt to beat Durham. Sports comes second to academic's. I would imagine that if you spent the time required to get to a level to beat opponents with twice your experience in half the time it took them whilst at Uni then chances are you would probably fail your degree. Is it worth throwing away a minimum of £3000 a year just to beat one team? Of course then of top of this you have workload in the third year, when players have the most experience but also have the most work, as soon as dissertation season sets in then those most experienced players just disappear and certainly can't train as much as they would need to.

As for the "they are Uni students too" argument, this may be true but they are also at the top of the hill. It takes a hell of a lot more hard-work to get up that hill than sitting at the top of it, hard-work and resources I doubt very few if any, students and AU's are able/willing to put in!

And finally the development argument, is it really helping Lacrosse develop? It certainally appears that it is helping Durham and the surronding area improve. However what about the bigger picture, what it looks like to me is that Durham have decided that Lacrosse is something they want to excel in and build a reputation in. Which is, of course fair enough however it looks and sounds like they have simply placed a unscalable brick wall in front of any team, in effect removing any competition from a competition. We all know this year was a forgone conclusion over who the winner was.

So does this lack of competition means that development will suffer overall? Will this stop other Uni's helping develop their Lacrosse Clubs, will they see Durham easily winning over their team and decide maybe that funding could be better spent elsewhere? In effect holding other teams back. Who knows but I'm not convinced Durham is helping the bigger picture for the development of Lacrosse, certainly at University Level

However there appears to be many un-answered questions about the cost and the "master" plan, if you guys really want to find out more I strongly suggest using the Freedom Of Information act: http://www.whatdotheyknow.com/body/durham_university If you sumbit it through there it will be done so that we can all see what information is requested.
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Re: The Great Big Bad Durham Thread

Postby Tommy88 Fri Feb 18, 2011 2:03 pm

chippie wrote:
Tommy88 wrote:Let's pull away from this argument about restricting the number of "American" players on a team, or anyone of any particular nationality playing a sport which is played at a much higher standard in their country. The 'cap' I believe most people are referring to is for scholarship NCAA standard lacrosse players, not just people who are from America and can play lacrosse. I can play football, I played for my school, I play for an intramural team...I'm not on the books for Manchester United (such as Oxford have guys who played lax at school, Durham have an MLL player). Say this cap for NCAA standard players brought over on scholarships was imposed, which I believe is the rite thing to do, others may not, entitled to their opinion, it would be interesting to see if any Americans, who played NCAA, came over on full fees just because they heard that Durham were a good school and the lacrosse was very good. Thought I would put that question into the mixer....and yes conceding is not an option as far as AU's are concerned.


who would judge if a player was NCAA standard?
and rather capping based on nationality, your doing it based on the fact someone went to uni and experienced something they might enjoy

are we forgetting that the guys and girls who come over to durham still have to pay a lot of money to do so....im sure if they really wanted to they could spend that money on doing something in the states, but they have an opportunity offered to them by an institution to get some postgrad qualifications and have a chance of playing sport

they prob wont be here if that opportunity wasnt given to them, BUT IT HAS.....on the other-side, oxford get americans because it is OXFORD not because of lacrosse.... im sure most unis at some point have picked one or two decent yank players i know we have at birmingham....

MLL or not, these kids still have to do academics, they may get some extra help/time but academics comes first.....i know one of their players missed a match because they couldnt miss that course day...!!

at least durham have 3 teams so that other players can play....if they only put out 1 team and stopped less experienced players from having an opportunity then that would be bad....

unfortunately you wont be able to govern how/what each uni does in each sport to get an advantage
almost every uni does it to some extent in a sport


WOW it never ceases to amaze me how misconstrued a message can be on this forum. Due to the fact that I attend University, have friends that go to both Oxford and Cambridge, take into account factors such as Rhode Scholars, read the Times Good University Guide and haven't been living under a rock for my entire life means that I know people choose Oxford for its academics and not its lacrosse, but thanks for telling me again. "who would judge if a player was NCAA standard" if your asking me who in particular would have the job of doing this I can't give you a name chap, but i'm guessing all they would have to do would be to check a NCAA teams roster to see if the player was in it, would that be proof? YES Durham players are here for academics, YES this comes first, who debated that? I didn't? Now...I will break it down again...please no more misconceptions...The 'cap' would be on former NCAA players on SCHOLARSHIPS!!! the 'capping' would be of the number of scholarships Durham would be allowed to offer to these former NCAA players. I will give an example, Exeter hockey is immense, last year they won BUCS gold and the 2nd team won the BUCS trophy, they have about 5 scholarships to give out, however lots of other international standard players join the university NOT on scholarship, simply because of the hockey clubs reputation. My question was does anyone think the same thing will happen with Durham if a 'SCHOLARSHIP CAP' was introduced. Chippie I understand you said you think they most likely wouldn't, I think it would be interesting to see. Also if they reach their goal of being somewhere British players will want to go (I know someone who didn't apply there because he thought he would not make the team). Finally, and most importantly, if the cap is imposed but former NCAA players still come over, paying full fee's, simply due to the University's reputation in Lacrosse, would people still be as outraged?
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Re: The Great Big Bad Durham Thread

Postby Princess Fri Feb 18, 2011 2:07 pm

"This thread just appears to be going round and round in circles, it is quite entertaining to watch.

I can't say that I've ever played Durham, can't say that I ever will. My Uni can't afford to put us into BUCS, leaving the club itself to pay SEMLA league fees, £70 a day minibus hire plus fuel on top only to be thrashed in each and every game, but we do it for the love of the game. So please before whining about BUCS and deciding that the best course of action would to simply not play the games, remember that BUCS is a privilege."


Ch*ist as does Aber AU poilicy! was like that when I left five years ago!
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Re: The Great Big Bad Durham Thread

Postby chippie Fri Feb 18, 2011 3:54 pm

Tommy88 wrote:WOW it never ceases to amaze me how misconstrued a message can be on this forum. Due to the fact that I attend University, have friends that go to both Oxford and Cambridge, take into account factors such as Rhode Scholars, read the Times Good University Guide and haven't been living under a rock for my entire life means that I know people choose Oxford for its academics and not its lacrosse, but thanks for telling me again. "who would judge if a player was NCAA standard" if your asking me who in particular would have the job of doing this I can't give you a name chap, but i'm guessing all they would have to do would be to check a NCAA teams roster to see if the player was in it, would that be proof? YES Durham players are here for academics, YES this comes first, who debated that? I didn't? Now...I will break it down again...please no more misconceptions...The 'cap' would be on former NCAA players on SCHOLARSHIPS!!! the 'capping' would be of the number of scholarships Durham would be allowed to offer to these former NCAA players. I will give an example, Exeter hockey is immense, last year they won BUCS gold and the 2nd team won the BUCS trophy, they have about 5 scholarships to give out, however lots of other international standard players join the university NOT on scholarship, simply because of the hockey clubs reputation. My question was does anyone think the same thing will happen with Durham if a 'SCHOLARSHIP CAP' was introduced. Chippie I understand you said you think they most likely wouldn't, I think it would be interesting to see. Also if they reach their goal of being somewhere British players will want to go (I know someone who didn't apply there because he thought he would not make the team). Finally, and most importantly, if the cap is imposed but former NCAA players still come over, paying full fee's, simply due to the University's reputation in Lacrosse, would people still be as outraged?


if ive taken what you have said the wrong way....i send my sincerest apologies ....

i ask the question about who would check how players would be judged as there are so many variables....someone might be on a roster but get 1 minute a game/or be injured for a season....is it only div 1 or you including div 2/3 and junior colleges, what about someone who played at high school, all american but didnt go to college, but gets a scholarship to a uk uni?? and plus we have all seen examples of americans who come over saying they have played lax for years and are actually rubbish....
i know you were just saying an example but is it really feasible??

however i still (and yes my opinion) still think that its a redic idea to dictate what a university does with it resources in a case like this

exeter give 5 scholarships for hockey.....but is that limited to 5, could they in theory give 10/12/15.....im guessing in theory yes
and are you saying that the ones that dont get a scholarship go to ex just because of the hockey clubs reputation....nothing to do with the fact that its a very good uni and they are clever enough to go there, when they could prob go to another for example polytechnic uni and get a scholarship??

and to your final question.....im guessing people prob still would....
p.s. talk of exeter following the durham model....they are already in year 1 of it :wink:
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Re: The Great Big Bad Durham Thread

Postby Tommy88 Fri Feb 18, 2011 5:05 pm

chippie wrote:
Tommy88 wrote:WOW it never ceases to amaze me how misconstrued a message can be on this forum. Due to the fact that I attend University, have friends that go to both Oxford and Cambridge, take into account factors such as Rhode Scholars, read the Times Good University Guide and haven't been living under a rock for my entire life means that I know people choose Oxford for its academics and not its lacrosse, but thanks for telling me again. "who would judge if a player was NCAA standard" if your asking me who in particular would have the job of doing this I can't give you a name chap, but i'm guessing all they would have to do would be to check a NCAA teams roster to see if the player was in it, would that be proof? YES Durham players are here for academics, YES this comes first, who debated that? I didn't? Now...I will break it down again...please no more misconceptions...The 'cap' would be on former NCAA players on SCHOLARSHIPS!!! the 'capping' would be of the number of scholarships Durham would be allowed to offer to these former NCAA players. I will give an example, Exeter hockey is immense, last year they won BUCS gold and the 2nd team won the BUCS trophy, they have about 5 scholarships to give out, however lots of other international standard players join the university NOT on scholarship, simply because of the hockey clubs reputation. My question was does anyone think the same thing will happen with Durham if a 'SCHOLARSHIP CAP' was introduced. Chippie I understand you said you think they most likely wouldn't, I think it would be interesting to see. Also if they reach their goal of being somewhere British players will want to go (I know someone who didn't apply there because he thought he would not make the team). Finally, and most importantly, if the cap is imposed but former NCAA players still come over, paying full fee's, simply due to the University's reputation in Lacrosse, would people still be as outraged?


if ive taken what you have said the wrong way....i send my sincerest apologies ....

i ask the question about who would check how players would be judged as there are so many variables....someone might be on a roster but get 1 minute a game/or be injured for a season....is it only div 1 or you including div 2/3 and junior colleges, what about someone who played at high school, all american but didnt go to college, but gets a scholarship to a uk uni?? and plus we have all seen examples of americans who come over saying they have played lax for years and are actually rubbish....
i know you were just saying an example but is it really feasible??

however i still (and yes my opinion) still think that its a redic idea to dictate what a university does with it resources in a case like this

exeter give 5 scholarships for hockey.....but is that limited to 5, could they in theory give 10/12/15.....im guessing in theory yes
and are you saying that the ones that dont get a scholarship go to ex just because of the hockey clubs reputation....nothing to do with the fact that its a very good uni and they are clever enough to go there, when they could prob go to another for example polytechnic uni and get a scholarship??

and to your final question.....im guessing people prob still would....
p.s. talk of exeter following the durham model....they are already in year 1 of it :wink:


I see your point, judging by Durham's case it would be players from div 1,2 and 3, but yes, even in this the caliber of player can differ massively, plus there is Junior college and high school. I guess they could research a players individual stats perhaps?. Upon checking I think the number of Hockey scholars may be even smaller than 5, think there is also a limit for them even though they are Exeter's biggest sport, most of the hockey players are from pretty big schools so there academics are high and yes I'm sure they chose Exeter for that, but I'm also sure their second and third choices were most likely Lough and Durham lol. I am as bad as any when it comes to harking on about how we should be trying to recruit British talent, I still believe this is the case, however Lacrosse is a small sport, not many people who play it go to university (although its true this is changing) plus the problem we have is that kids need to have at least AAB in order to get in here, I imagine Durham is the same. "p.s. talk of Exeter following the Durham model....they are already in year 1 of it" hehe we could dream Chippie mate:). In the words of our coach "If I wanted to coach a group of Americans, why would I have come to England!" We do now have scholarship opportunities for male lacrosse players, as I imagine other University's will begin to do, but I think we missed out for next year in terms of UCAS, but as is the case with a lot of uni's there are a couple of rumours here and there but everyone in the south prem can breath a sigh of relief that the rumours stem from this side of the pond :D
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Re: The Great Big Bad Durham Thread

Postby Dining Room Fri Feb 18, 2011 5:33 pm

If this Forum had been around 10 years ago we'd all be moaning that some clubs in NEMLA had 2 or 3 Americans making it unfair for our beer-swilling comrades in other teams. Didn't stop Ben Mitchell nutmegging an all-American who later played MLL. (he went home 2 weeks later) :D . It's a privilege to play top teams.
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