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Tree13
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Re: The Great Big Bad Durham Thread

Postby Tree13 Fri Feb 11, 2011 5:35 pm

rpowell wrote:
Freddie wrote:
baldyuplax wrote:I can only see whats happening at Durham as a good thing. Simply because it will hopefully encourage more universities to invest more money in their lacrosse teams.


I think what most people are afraid of is that due to Durham doing this in one huge bang and importing almost an entire first team, other universities won't bother. It would be huge financial risk for another university to follow suit when Durham have already done this and those players have at least 1 years experience of playing together. After all there isn't that much money to be made in University sport and therefore I can't imagine we would ever get enough Universities to put the funding needed in, to have a large 'BUCS Team America Lacrosse League.'


I don't believe most sports unions will feel that way. They are just as likely to think "hey, Mens's Lacrosse is an emerging sport, just got its act together with a Premier League - wouldn't take much investment to get ourselves a hatful of BUCS points..."

Yes, Durham won at a canter last season, and will probably do so again - but Nottingham got 35 BUCS points for 2nd place, and Oxford and Warwick took home 24 points for getting to a semi-final. Obviously these institutions would rather have had 1st place... but any points they can get are valued. And it's a lot easier\cheaper to move up half a dozen places in our sport than it is in Hockey, Rugby, football etc...

The five different AU's I've dealt with in my time at Uni would definitely agree with Freddie. The cruel irony of uni sports funding is that you generally have to prove you don't need the money (ie win the league unassisted) before the institution will invest.

Time will tell. Let's see how many other universities set up completely new lacrosse clubs as a result of Durham showing them the way this year :roll:
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Re: The Great Big Bad Durham Thread

Postby Sour37 Fri Feb 11, 2011 5:47 pm

Tree13 wrote:
Sour37 wrote:I'll say it again:

This does not cost Durham university a penny - they in fact get 10-12 extra EU level paying students

All of whom are recruited from outside the EU and therefore would, but for the scholarship, be paying non-EU overseas rates.

Therefore the cost is the sum of the difference between the EU fee and the non-EU overseas fee..... times ten. Whilst it is not money the uni has to find and pay out, it is a reduction in forecasted income. You may not consider that a cost, and to some extent I would not disagree with you, but any Uni finance department will regard it as a "spend". Remember we keep getting told that these scholars would be at Durham doing the same course anyway, therefore there has been a reduction in the Uni's income due to the reduction in fees.

The only way this would not be the case would be if these ten chaps would NOT otherwise have come to Durham, and their places were taken instead by people paying less, or no-one taking those places at all.


I don't think anyone's said that these lads would be at Durham without the offer of reduced fees, but the way I understand it is that they are generally on under subscribed courses, and as such don't cost the Uni anything
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Re: The Great Big Bad Durham Thread

Postby rpowell Fri Feb 11, 2011 6:03 pm

Tree13 wrote:
rpowell wrote:
Freddie wrote: I think what most people are afraid of is that due to Durham doing this in one huge bang and importing almost an entire first team, other universities won't bother. <snip>


I don't believe most sports unions will feel that way. They are just as likely to think "hey, Mens's Lacrosse is an emerging sport, just got its act together with a Premier League - wouldn't take much investment to get ourselves a hatful of BUCS points..."

Yes, Durham won at a canter last season, and will probably do so again - but Nottingham got 35 BUCS points for 2nd place, and Oxford and Warwick took home 24 points for getting to a semi-final. Obviously these institutions would rather have had 1st place... but any points they can get are valued. And it's a lot easier\cheaper to move up half a dozen places in our sport than it is in Hockey, Rugby, football etc...

The five different AU's I've dealt with in my time at Uni would definitely agree with Freddie. The cruel irony of uni sports funding is that you generally have to prove you don't need the money (ie win the league unassisted) before the institution will invest.

Time will tell. Let's see how many other universities set up completely new lacrosse clubs as a result of Durham showing them the way this year :roll:


I can safely predict that no-one will set-up a new club as a result of Durham and their recruitment policy.
But I am also completely confident that no extra team would have been set-up if they had not pursued that policy.

There are two different things here - the first is getting that extra bit of dosh for one or more scholarships, to enhance an existing team. Maybe Durham would have helped or hindered.

But much more difficult is starting up a new club. One of our team is at Heriott-Watt, and was greeted with what can only be described as a mixture of apathy and antipathy when he suggested a lacrosse club. This at the university that hosted the 1993 Womens World Cup. No new sports wanted or welcome!
Last edited by rpowell on Fri Feb 11, 2011 7:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The Great Big Bad Durham Thread

Postby D K Fri Feb 11, 2011 6:06 pm

UKLacrosse wrote:
Steely Dan wrote:Keith, I think you my have missed my post above.

Undergraduate places are capped by UK government, postgrad places are not.

Furthermore the break-even point for a postgrad course is normally met from UK applicants entirely, resulting in overseas applicants filling the coffers an meeting the overheads associated with the additional requirements of one more student.

Furthermore in many cases a large proportion of postgraduate courses include a self directed research project. Provided that the equipment required has spare capacity this results in little inconvenience taking in postgrads.

In most cases postgrads are outnumbered at least 5:1 I not closer to 10:1 by undergrads.


Dan, apparently not, as there is a government subsidy for postgrads masters courses of around £100m, as indicated in the Guardian article.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/education/201 ... nding-cuts


I think Steely Dan has some good points. Bear in mind that most of them are studying for masters in the business school i.e. finance or managment, which as far as i know is relatively self taught. The cost of these degrees is about £8500 for EU fee payers (£1400-£1600 for non-EU). I imagine that this will probably cover the costs of tuition although I could be wrong. I assume that the average cost of educating a post grad is pushed up considerably by lab based research projects and courses requiring specialist equipment and software.

To finally answer those who think it may cost the tax payer money - http://www.dur.ac.uk/study/postgraduate/fees/

I can only conclude that either 1) the course is not otherwise at full capacity 2) the extra students generate a net profit even if they increase overheads or 3) the university weighs the net benefit of more bucs points etc. to be worth the shortfall in funding. #

Probably incoherent but hopefully theres something useful somewhere in there.
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Re: The Great Big Bad Durham Thread

Postby D K Fri Feb 11, 2011 6:12 pm

Just in case people are too lazy to look at that link, I am referring to this from the postgraduate part of the website -

''The levels of postgraduate fees are not regulated by the UK Government and the recent decisions on undergraduate fees do not apply to postgraduate fees either for UK or non-UK students. Postgraduate fees have always been independently set by Durham University. ''
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Re: The Great Big Bad Durham Thread

Postby Tree13 Sat Feb 12, 2011 12:25 pm

D K wrote:Just in case people are too lazy to look at that link, I am referring to this from the postgraduate part of the website -

''The levels of postgraduate fees are not regulated by the UK Government and the recent decisions on undergraduate fees do not apply to postgraduate fees either for UK or non-UK students. Postgraduate fees have always been independently set by Durham University. ''

Unless I'm reading this wrong, this has nothing to do with UK taxpayer subsidisation of the course, or lack thereof. It relates to the capping of fees to the student i.e. undergrad courses, currently capped at £3k, are soon to have their cap set at £9k by the government (the "recent decisions on undergrad fees" referred to in your quote) but there is no cap on postgrad course fees.

This says nothing about whether or not the course is subsidised by public funds, therefore does not bear any relevance to your argument that the larger topic does not affect UK taxpayers.
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Re: The Great Big Bad Durham Thread

Postby Tree13 Sat Feb 12, 2011 12:39 pm

LPierce wrote:What I'd like to know is whether we'd have as much a problem if this wasn't about our sport, but was happening in something like tennis.

It does happen in other sports, but they don't tend to come onto a lacrosse forum to talk about it :D
When I was at Bristol my then-girlfriend was on the women's tennis team and I traveled with her to a (then) BUSA fixture against Exeter.... there were an unusually high number of eastern european women on Exeter's team, most of whom did not possess sufficient command of English to facilitate studying an undergrad course delivered in English. They were freakin' awesome tennis players though. Eyebrows were raised through official channels.

University american football in this country has taken a step many would regard as controversial in dealing with this problem. All teams are limited to a maximum of five "north american" players on the field at any one time, although their is no limit to the number that may be in the squad as a whole. Once this sport falls under BUCS control no doubt this rule will be scrapped, but it has historically served well. Oxford in the early 2000's had enough experienced americans to render the sport a joke at college level but this rule prevented them doing so.
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Re: The Great Big Bad Durham Thread

Postby LPierce Sat Feb 12, 2011 1:18 pm

Ah women's tennis... It does make for some interesting half time entertainment.

A friend of mine is at the University of Louisiana at Monroe in the US, having gained a scholarship there along with a few other Brits etc and in 2009 they won the NCAA Championship for water skiing. Okay granted it isn't the biggest of sports but I asked whether or not people there complained about being unable to break into the 1sts due to foreign competition and apparently in the US for a fair few sports it is an issue but they just get on with it.

While I do understand it's a very bitter pill to swallow, I for one don't know why Aberdeen would ever play Durham so I guess I'm as impartial as can be, the fact of the matter is that we can't do anything about it and while it isn't fair if Durham insist on importing a team let them.... It won't gain them any friends, just 50 points in BUCS which other sports can easily make up for. End of the day the players themselves aren't at fault, it's the system. A nice rework of BUCS is needed but I don't see it happening any time soon.

Btw who's off to the Stockport 8s?
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Re: The Great Big Bad Durham Thread

Postby Murray Tue Feb 15, 2011 2:33 pm

I've not been reading all of the previous comments but thought was a talking point:

http://www.englishlacrosse.co.uk/vsite/ ... em,00.html

Cant' Durham university afford to front this money themselves as opposed to detracting the grants from other uni teams/clubs just starting out that may need the money more?

Surely Durham are not only commited to getting the BUCS points by waiving the international fees. So aren't they willing to front the minimal costs of a few sets of pop lacrosse kit in order to develop the game in their local schools? Let's face it, Durham clearly aren't strapped for cash otherwise they'd be charging full internatioanl fees.

It may be that Durham LC is being/has been set up and is operating externally from the university - anybody know if that's the case?
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Re: The Great Big Bad Durham Thread

Postby GarethBrown Tue Feb 15, 2011 8:13 pm

Murray wrote:I've not been reading all of the previous comments but thought was a talking point:

http://www.englishlacrosse.co.uk/vsite/ ... em,00.html

Cant' Durham university afford to front this money themselves as opposed to detracting the grants from other uni teams/clubs just starting out that may need the money more?

Surely Durham are not only commited to getting the BUCS points by waiving the international fees. So aren't they willing to front the minimal costs of a few sets of pop lacrosse kit in order to develop the game in their local schools? Let's face it, Durham clearly aren't strapped for cash otherwise they'd be charging full internatioanl fees.

It may be that Durham LC is being/has been set up and is operating externally from the university - anybody know if that's the case?


It has been mentioned several times now that Durham are probably not losing money, and in fact making some, by offering these half price places only on courses which are currently undersubscribed, and where half price is still above the costs per person for the course.

(All conjecture of course, but I don't see how else they would justify it to the university governance structures)
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Re: The Great Big Bad Durham Thread

Postby D K Wed Feb 16, 2011 9:30 pm

Tree13 wrote:
University american football in this country has taken a step many would regard as controversial in dealing with this problem. All teams are limited to a maximum of five "north american" players on the field at any one time, although their is no limit to the number that may be in the squad as a whole. Once this sport falls under BUCS control no doubt this rule will be scrapped, but it has historically served well. Oxford in the early 2000's had enough experienced americans to render the sport a joke at college level but this rule prevented them doing so.


if you've seen these guys play I doubt only having 5 on the pitch at one time would necessarily effect the overall results. See your point though. I guess it would not only give the other teams better odds but also force the club to concentrate more on developing home grown talent but as you have already said, its up to bucs and there isnt much chance of them doing anything like that.
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Re: Predictions for BUCS Championships

Postby RichiRidings Thu Feb 17, 2011 1:01 am

laxingtonIII wrote:It's not even worth guessing Men's championship. Until BUCS change the rules so that you can't have a team made up of D1/D3 school Americans who are there just for lacrosse and not for academic reasons then Durham will win. It seems pointless any team playing them...any team that can win the Northern premier with a goal difference of +158 should not be in a UK uni competition.

you forgot their MLL player.
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Re: The Great Big Bad Durham Thread

Postby Tree13 Thu Feb 17, 2011 10:19 am

D K wrote:
Tree13 wrote:University american football in this country has taken a step many would regard as controversial in dealing with this problem. All teams are limited to a maximum of five "north american" players on the field at any one time, although their is no limit to the number that may be in the squad as a whole. Once this sport falls under BUCS control no doubt this rule will be scrapped, but it has historically served well. Oxford in the early 2000's had enough experienced americans to render the sport a joke at college level but this rule prevented them doing so.


if you've seen these guys play I doubt only having 5 on the pitch at one time would necessarily effect the overall results. See your point though. I guess it would not only give the other teams better odds but also force the club to concentrate more on developing home grown talent but as you have already said, its up to bucs and there isnt much chance of them doing anything like that.

I played five seasons of university american football and coached two more - I have seen some AMAZING north americans come over on exchange years and totally turn teams around. Examples of teams losing every game in one season, bringing a couple of americans and then winning 75% of the next season's games are plentiful. But that's the thing - because of the league ruling limiting their on-field proliferation, they can only make so much of a difference - no-one has ever recruited a dozen american postgrads with NCAA experience to play football over here because the rules don't ALLOW the team concerned to use any more than five of them at a time.... which in turn stops the teams that DO recruit americans from steamrolling everyone else. As a result the last decade has seen the general standard of american football in the UK improve to the point that representative student teams from the UK have faced, and defeated, a couple of NCAA II/III schools on their own turf, and the UK senior team has vastly improved its standing in European competition.

It's a similar situation to lacrosse in that some of these boys come over having been playing since they were six years old, most at high schools with better funded athletic programs than ANY university in the UK, and then at American universities with better sports facilities than the average professional rugby or soccer club in the UK. Of course they will almost always be the best players on the field, but we shouldn't get to the stage where they are the ONLY players on the field.
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Re: The Great Big Bad Durham Thread

Postby RichiRidings Thu Feb 17, 2011 2:24 pm

I'm at Sheffield hallam and i think form when we *played* against them, i learnt a lot from them, but it does take away the fact it is a competition, and how does bringing in a whole team of yanks fair play for the universities that have just set up lacrosse programmes, new lacrosse programmes are very keen players but losing 30+ to zero is very demoralising, when we played Durham, we played very well at Sheffield yes there all MLL player got 11 of there 19 goals, my opinion we played very well moved the ball well in attack and eventually we got a few goals.
but the fact is there has got to be a cap on the amount of Americans a team can bring in to there programme, we came second this year and we didn't even have one yank, i think there should be a maximum number of Americans a team can bring in, for instance 4-(one goalie, one defender, one midi, and one attacker) that way they still have Americans on there squad but in proportion that the new players get the coaching the Americans had back in the states.
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Re: The Great Big Bad Durham Thread

Postby Steely Dan Thu Feb 17, 2011 2:45 pm

just out of interest is it percieved that it would be fairer if the team where made up of a similar number of equally skilled North Americans that attended the university without incentive?

or in addition, would the situation be accepted generally if the team were made up of a majority of England u19's rather than North Americans?
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Re: The Great Big Bad Durham Thread

Postby the pom Thu Feb 17, 2011 4:38 pm

either accept it or

all other teams just dont play them give them a walk over every game and play for second.

in a knock out who ever should have played them in the final plays the winner of 2nd and third place.

simple
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Re: The Great Big Bad Durham Thread

Postby rpowell Thu Feb 17, 2011 6:09 pm

Before I start, I have to say I agree with you - people need to just live with it. there's as much chance of limiting North American players as there is of limiting players from Greater Manchester
the pom wrote:either accept it or

all other teams just dont play them give them a walk over every game and play for second.

in a knock out who ever should have played them in the final plays the winner of 2nd and third place.

simple

But, this is not an option! If you don't turn up for a match in BUCS, you get in trouble. You can lose additional points; if you miss both matches against Durham in the Northern Premier, that could be enough for exclusion from the knock-out stages, or even relegation.
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Re: The Great Big Bad Durham Thread

Postby LPierce Thu Feb 17, 2011 7:00 pm

If it was decided by who had the shiniest kit Aberdeen would definitely win BUCS. Our kit makes us look like clowns, and we wear eye black. Enough said. :wink:
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Re: The Great Big Bad Durham Thread

Postby david s Thu Feb 17, 2011 7:05 pm

UKLaxfan wrote:that attitude put the Great in Great Britain, and if around 70 years ago we'd all be speaking German now


Only a matter of time before we reached 'Godwin's Law'...

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Re: The Great Big Bad Durham Thread

Postby Parksey21 Thu Feb 17, 2011 8:01 pm

I have been reading this post as I find the whole thing very interesting, mainly due to the calibre of player Durham have now acquired. Although there are strong points for those who agree and disagree with their American 'All Star' team, the circumstances are not likely to change (at least not any time soon even though I do think American Football have addressed this matter a lot better as a 5 man cap, I think, would benefit all) so what are Durham going to do with all this talent and experience?

At Essex we go into local schools and coach Lacrosse voluntarily in order to help grow the sport in the area even though we are a new program. Can Durham not do something similar that would benefit the sport on a larger scale? (A slight side note to this, do English players get to train with the Americans?) It seems that there is a way more can benefit from these Div 1 players and help promote this sport but not turning up to games and providing Walkovers is an absolutely ridiculous idea!! I would personally love the opportunity to play with or against players at this level. Its opportunities like this and initiatives from organisations such as ArchLevel with their Summer League and Pro tours which will give us (England) the exposure to lacrosse that the Americans have had for years. This could be a small stepping stone in enabling us to play and coach at a much higher level.
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