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Sieverts on life at Durham University

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Tommy88
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Re: Sieverts on life at Durham University

Postby Tommy88 Thu Nov 25, 2010 8:22 pm

GarethBrown wrote:
Tommy88 wrote:
UKLaxfan wrote:This is what the argument comes down to each time... it's not fair

Durham University have done nothing wrong, the players have done nothing wrong

Durham recognised an opportunity to dominate a new BUCS sport and took advantage of it


I dont want to come across as saying either Durham or their players have done anything wrong, as you said Durham saw an opportunity and took it. Plus, if I was an NCAA player and saw the chance to study at a university as good as Durham and play lax with very talented players I would jump at the chance. I am simply looking at the long term, I believe if a sort of cap is not introduced one of two things are going to happen, either 1) Durham are going to continue to recruit NCAA players who have just come from playing for a D1,D2 or D3 college where they train every day at the highest level, they then beat this countries best university teams such as sheffield by 20+ goals and win the BUCS gold every year. Or 2) other university's begin to follow suit and then these teams dominate their leagues and the knockout rounds, with most English players struggling to get any play in these teams. I am simply saying that if the durham team today had half the Americans they have in that team, plus half of their second team they would still have a very good shot at winning BUCS gold and the English players would get some great playing experience and be able to say they won a BUCS gold. I am not trying to infuse another forum page full of anti Durham posts, what I am trying to get at is that I believe university's in this country should be more interested in recruiting some of our talented young club players, that way we can not only improve the standard of university lacrosse in this country, but also its a great chance to offer good education to young lax players, Basically it would be nice to see more teams like the Sheffield University's, Nottingham and Portsmouth (who have just got a group of Blues players who are helping the University's programme a lot). I am only trying to suggest what I think would improve University lacrosse in England, not ridicule Durham for what they are doing.



You've gone absolutely mental if you think that in the current funding climate universities are going to start throwing money around for lacrosse players!!!

I'm not saying I don't agree with you, but it's very unrealistic to suggest. I'm not sure how the structure at Durham works, financially, but I can only assume they are recruiting American players onto undersubscribed courses, which would mean they are actually gaining money rather than, as appears on the face of it, losing it.


I wouldn't say I have gone "absolutely mental" lol. As mentioned, the Durham players are not here on free rides, simply reduced fee's, they are still paying a lot of money to study at Durham so the university is gaining money. It was the impressive programme that attracted them, according to their website the players get a number of sporting privileges. But still you could be rite, in the current climate other University's could not manage to do this. My argument is that more universitys should be striving to get talented English players on sports scholarships, I know in the future thats what we want to do.

webby wrote:Rumours have it that the American and English players last year asked the Durham AU for LESS Americans - somewhere around 5 - but the AU went and brought in 13...

Will be interesting as to what numbers they bring in next year, or if they offer similar deals to other international-based lacrosse stars.


my point exactly, I believe that with the team they have been building in their 2s and 3s they will still be contenders next year even with less americans.....but perhaps by smaller scorlines. :D
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Re: Sieverts on life at Durham University

Postby GarethBrown Thu Nov 25, 2010 10:48 pm

webby wrote:Durham players are not here on free-rides. They are here on reduced fees. They don't pay international students fees, instead they pay something nearer to UK/EU fees, which is significantly less than US fees. So in terms of money, as far as I'm aware, Durham aren't really losing out if 13 NCAA players come in vs 13 EU students. They are primarily here to get their Masters, and the fact that they play lacrosse and help develop the program means they pay a lot less.
.


My point was that they are losing money if the courses they are getting on to could fill with internationals paying full fees. Ergo, I assume either Durham is minted (unlikely, especially in the future) or they are only offering a select number of courses based on subscription levels. Also, their courses must be very conveniently free on a Wednesday afternoon?
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Re: Sieverts on life at Durham University

Postby LPierce Fri Nov 26, 2010 3:22 am

I don't know anything about Oxford but last season when we played St Andrews I heard two non-American accents come from their team and one was the goalkeeper.

I don't personally see anything wrong with what Durham is doing, and if what they are doing is adopted by other universities it may be good for the development of the sport. Personally I wouldn't have minded had Americans been here and helped our freshers etc out.

I agree a cap should be imposed on how many American players can be on the pitch for each team at once, but I feel it would be difficult to enforce. What about someone who was born in Britain, has a British passport, but who has lived in the US and been to an American college? Do they count as one of these Americans despite being a British national?

Currently having this debate with my flatmates and the general concern appears to be that until there is a better infrastructure in place for developing lacrosse then universities willing to develop their support for the sport will dominate the sport. Manchester, London and Sheffield may have good youth development but I am unaware of anywhere else with the same level of development.

Let's be realistic; if we had the same chance to go to a foreign university with excellent academics and the chance to take part in some high level lacrosse we would.

What with that rant I'm going to go back to lamenting my choice of university for being so northern and flippin cold.
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Re: Sieverts on life at Durham University

Postby UKLaxfan Fri Nov 26, 2010 7:01 am

The idea of a Cap on the number of Americans playing on a BUCS team is ridiculous.

You are talking about fee paying students who are representing their University
- How dare they be good at sport
- How dare they train 6 times a week
- How terrible for them to be born outside the UK

If the circumstances were reversed a lot of people would be screaming blue murder

Can you imagine an American College Soccer team saying "we don't want to travel to them as they have 11 Brits playing for them"
There should be a Cap on the number of Brits (or Limeys)

The NCAA takes students from all over the World who are the best at their sport

There are no restrictions on number of Canadian Ice Hockey or Lacrosse players
or Kenyan middle distance runners, or New Zealand Rugby players

If I was a student playing lacrosse, the one game I wouldn't want to miss is the Durham game, a chance to test yourself against strong opposition.

It makes me question why some people play the sport

Is it just to wear the gear and look good, if you might be beaten by a stronger team you don't want to play? :(
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Re: Sieverts on life at Durham University

Postby Ketts19 Fri Nov 26, 2010 10:07 am

UKLaxfan wrote:
The NCAA takes students from all over the World who are the best at their sport

There are no restrictions on number of Canadian Ice Hockey or Lacrosse players
or Kenyan middle distance runners, or New Zealand Rugby players

(


But (correct me if I'm wrong) there is a cap on the number of scholarships (full, half, athletic and/or academic) offered is there not?

Essentially by Durham offering tuition fees in line with UK/EU students instead of international rates, that is in part a scholarship (or at least one heck of a privileged discount!). If there was some form of restriction on money spent/discounted in this scenario where the university retained the option on how it was divided up (say 10 x discounted fees or 5 'free rides') then it might give a sense of regulation to the subject.

Durham haven't broken any rules in much the way Chelski or Citeh haven't, except for the very British idea of working for your success. With the implementation of increased tuition fees however (which must surely impact on these guys would be paying) I'm sceptical as to for how long they may be able to draw in NCAA players if it suddenly becomes a less cost-effective scenario to study at Durham.
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Re: Sieverts on life at Durham University

Postby Rotisserie Fri Nov 26, 2010 11:10 am

LPierce wrote:I don't know anything about Oxford but last season when we played St Andrews I heard two non-American accents come from their team and one was the goalkeeper.


When we played Oxford last year (BUCS quarters) they had at least 7 americans on their team, including a D-pole who played final four with Cornell and the starting keeper from Penn State. This year they seem to have fewer but are working well as a team. (I think they also pick more up throughout the year when yanks studying there hear that they have a lacrosse team).

It would be extremely unfair, however, for an american who has chosen to study at Oxford for the academic prowess to find out they had a men's lacrosse team but that he can't play for them because they've already filled their "x" number of yank spots!
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Re: Sieverts on life at Durham University

Postby jivingjohn Fri Nov 26, 2010 12:11 pm

UKLaxfan wrote:- How dare they be good at sport


Too true.

Durham need to be held to rights. I think you should all refuse to play until every team has an equal skill level. I see this being enforced by the production of Top Trump cards for each player that keep up-to-date stats.

To avoid cheating, the cards will be printed and laminated (we all learned something from the Iroquois on that one..)

Ah, a world where everyone is equal and all things are fair... soon after you'll see a pig walking up to the X on his hind legs wearing kit.
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Re: Sieverts on life at Durham University

Postby gazmanofhull Fri Nov 26, 2010 12:18 pm

I think a lot of the 'anger', for want of a better description, is a feeling that Durham have bought the title!

On there website they state that they want to become the destination for the best young lacrosse players from England. But any exceedingly talented English player us unlikely to go to Durham when a first-team place would be under threat from an annual influx of Americans. So Durham seem to be defeating there own objective! Players are much more likely to go to Notts, Sheffield (either if the 4 uni teams in those places) and other traditional lacrosse Unis for the chance to play first-team uni and high level NEMLA/SEMLA lacrosse!
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Re: Sieverts on life at Durham University

Postby dmiddie Fri Nov 26, 2010 2:26 pm

I can see it all now -

Due to increased tuition fees and less government funding, less UK and EU students can afford to fill university places, both undergraduate and post graduate. This leads to universities looking further afield to fill places, maybe even postgrad lacrosse players on cheap Masters courses? These guys take out loans in the US that they can hardly afford to repay, the lenders package up these loans into CDS’s and sell them on to gullible British banks! These banks run into financial problems and the British government prints money to bail them out. Bingo, we end up with NCAA lacrosse players raising the level of lacrosse at UK universities, paid for by the British government, despite pulling the plug on funding university places for UK students. Result, students take to the streets to march and protest at the injustice of it all!
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Re: Sieverts on life at Durham University

Postby B37 Fri Nov 26, 2010 2:28 pm

I like the idea of bringing elite players into the university game, I can't see it catching on. We're expecting cutbacks with our funding over the next few years.

Its a shame that the BUCS championship is so obviously a foregone conclusion.

More sympathy for the durham yanks though. Beasting a season without any sort of challenge isn't fun. Does their defence even break into a sweat?
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Re: Sieverts on life at Durham University

Postby Duncs Fri Nov 26, 2010 7:08 pm

This is a great thread! Good on Durham, I think it's great that NCAA calibre players are playing in BUCS. Who'd have thought that 6 years ago when BUCS didn't even recognise Men's Lacrosse?!

On the other hand, why is the Barclays Premiership so good this year? The increasing parity between teams and the resulting open contest + unpredictable results attracts interest and attention. I had a keen eye on the BUCS knockouts over the last few years as an Alumni - this year I've lost interest as it would appear to be a forgone conclusion which I find a shame.
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Re: Sieverts on life at Durham University

Postby Rochielax22 Fri Nov 26, 2010 7:11 pm

The reason Durham deserve to have success in BUCS is simple:
1) They train VERY hard
2) They have more backing from their AU than any other University

The thing that is upsetting, at least in my eyes, is that they could have had exactly the same success by introducing good English players, putting in the experienced Americans to aid coaching and build a much less controversial set up that the sport of lacrosse could embrace rather than debate about CONSTANTLY.

Look elsewhere in BUCS and there are some great things happening. Sheff Uni and Hallam have a social side that is unrivalled, Players from the smaller country teams are flourishing all over the place. Loughborough Uni (At risk of blowing our own trumpet) have produced some of the fastest improving players in lacrosse. Cambridge have recruited dedicated coaching staff that took the team "South Uni's" to a win against the Wales national team at last years BNC's.

BUCS lacrosse is flourishing, and if a way to keep hold of the players that start at University can be found then it'll be providing a much more abundant supply of new names to lacrosse than any junior section at either end of the country.
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Re: Sieverts on life at Durham University

Postby LPierce Sat Nov 27, 2010 12:26 am

That is another aspect to it; how do you tell someone they can't play as you already have filled your allowed number of Americans? Surely everyone registered to the university has a right to trial and play?

As several people have stated they have come primarily because they had the opportunity to get a top class education for much cheaper than it would be at home. The fact they were told that in order to get the reduced cost they had to play and they agreed does not make them bad people.
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Re: Sieverts on life at Durham University

Postby Sour37 Sat Nov 27, 2010 12:42 am

Ketts19 wrote:Essentially by Durham offering tuition fees in line with UK/EU students instead of international rates, that is in part a scholarship (or at least one heck of a privileged discount!). If there was some form of restriction on money spent/discounted in this scenario where the university retained the option on how it was divided up (say 10 x discounted fees or 5 'free rides') then it might give a sense of regulation to the subject.



I'm not sure if this has been mentioned, but this scheme is essentially not costing Durham anything. What they have is 10-15 extra EU fee paying people that they would've otherwise have.

I know for a fact that one other university in the north east has looked into the possibility of doing a similar thing - but felt that they couldn't quite justify it to the board yet, as they didn't have the college system in which to lose the accommodation costs in

edit: and of course Rochie is right...they train a lot and play games at every opportunity against whomever wants to play them
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Re: Sieverts on life at Durham University

Postby UKLaxfan Sat Nov 27, 2010 12:04 pm

dmiddie wrote:I can see it all now -

Due to increased tuition fees and less government funding, less UK and EU students can afford to fill university places, both undergraduate and post graduate. This leads to universities looking further afield to fill places, maybe even postgrad lacrosse players on cheap Masters courses? These guys take out loans in the US that they can hardly afford to repay, the lenders package up these loans into CDS’s and sell them on to gullible British banks! These banks run into financial problems and the British government prints money to bail them out. Bingo, we end up with NCAA lacrosse players raising the level of lacrosse at UK universities, paid for by the British government, despite pulling the plug on funding university places for UK students. Result, students take to the streets to march and protest at the injustice of it all!


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Re: Sieverts on life at Durham University

Postby chippie Sat Nov 27, 2010 3:05 pm

just a disappointment that the AU couldnt find the money to fund the mens team in NEMLA...im sure the team would enjoy playing in a weekend league!

on the womens side....they had 3 americans last year, didnt win bucs....and this year they have six and are getting better results.....but they are still beatable! they work hard and play hard....but are still beatable, maybe next year they will have 9, who knows....
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Re: Sieverts on life at Durham University

Postby Shillin Sat Nov 27, 2010 4:46 pm

i have a question, durham have 13 american players, but i'm guessing that they could still walk the championship with having say 8 americans and some brits. Is there any rule in BUCS to stop durham dropping say 5 american NCAA players to their second team so that they can have a clean sweep of the bucs championship and the bucs cup.
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Re: Sieverts on life at Durham University

Postby Sour37 Sat Nov 27, 2010 5:03 pm

Shillin wrote:i have a question, durham have 13 american players, but i'm guessing that they could still walk the championship with having say 8 americans and some brits. Is there any rule in BUCS to stop durham dropping say 5 american NCAA players to their second team so that they can have a clean sweep of the bucs championship and the bucs cup.


i doubt it - but their second team is pretty solid already
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Re: Sieverts on life at Durham University

Postby UKLaxfan Sat Nov 27, 2010 5:10 pm

The Durham Captain is James Prescott (England U19s/Poynton) who's game looks to have developed at Durham University

He was excellent in the game I watched
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Re: Sieverts on life at Durham University

Postby ibop Sat Nov 27, 2010 5:15 pm

The guys reckon he is in sufficient form to get a place with a US college.
The only time he takes his foot out of his mouth, is to put the other one in!

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