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Should we move SEMLA to the Summer?

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KagedAnimal
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Re: Should we move SEMLA to the Summer?

Postby KagedAnimal Sun Feb 10, 2013 4:56 pm

To all the people arguing that summer is when you spend time with your wives/girlfriends:

First of all, are your partners sitting around all year just waiting for you to have free time to spend with them? I suspect they, like most other women, make plans with friends and family that dont always involve you. They will likely continue to do so and are more likely to want to in the summer when there is more to do. Your lady will probably be much more grateful for that Indonesian beach holiday when it is miserable and cold in February than she will in August when there are more options. As has been mentioned, it is a choice whether you play any particular weekend. I dont know of anyone who takes off for holiday every weekend in Summer. Just like in winter, they maybe miss a game or two. This is not a big ask if you get through the hyperbole of "oh my summer is ruined if lacrosse is played during it." It's not ruined any more than the winter is. You can choose when you are available for it and will find that you likely have as much time to give to the sport as you do now.

Also, other than American Thanksgiving Weekend, I've never heard of Hampstead players complaining about whether or not to play lacrosse or go on holiday. They just take their holiday and go about their lives. Maybe we can take our queue from them and realise that we can easily play lacrosse and live our lives. (though I suppose the lure of gold plated ski chalets makes it easier to miss a match or two)

It will kill university lacrosse:

No it won't. Universities kill university lacrosse. My experience with London University taught me the biggest drawback to the sport was the University itself. Underfunding, lack of assistance and an ignorance of the men's game were all legitimate struggles the team faced in keeping the program going and growing (though I understand some of these have been resolved). Either way, as stated above, the trend in SEMLA has been that of Unis dropping out rather than joining. University men's lacrosse may be growing in but this has fed directly into the BUCS system rather than SEMLA.

Anyone arguing that we have to protect Unis needs to make this distinction. The summer lacrosse proposal is about SEMLA and has to take SEMLA as its priority. The debate is not about how to grow the sport in unis (something already showing upward trend in BUCS). Its about how to strengthen SEMLA. We will, however, have to assess whether the loss of Unis will hurt lower league structures or discuss how those leagues might be rearranged. At the moment in East 2 and East 3 there are three participating university teams in each division. Their loss would turn them immediately into 6 and 5 team leagues respectively. This would either mean fewer games per season in East 2/3 or more frequent double-ups (play a team twice per season half instead of once). This is not a deal breaker for me for moving the league to summer. But it is something that will have to be addressed.

Finally, where are all the recent graduates in the SEMLA system? I know many students take up lacrosse at uni only to sell off their it. I have no actual statistics or know if there has ever been an accounting of this. I have always wondered, if men's lacrosse is the fastest growing men's sport in university, why hasnt this led to an explosion in club membership? I know some teams have picked up some recruits, Hillcroft certainly has had success drawing from uni starters. But the numbers just dont seem to translate into the club system. I have always suspected that there simply isn't a good relationship between the clubs and the Unis. Certainly not in London (although I do recognize that Bath, Bristol, and Reading have very strong links with their Uni counterparts). The fact of the matter is that, numerically, the majority of top Southern clubs are in London. It's odd then that this is also the region where the links between clubs and unis are the weakest. A summer league will allow all you souther superstars to step up and show us how important Uni lacrosse is to you by building these links and volunteering a bit of time coaching. Though I suspect this will not happen due to lack of interest and/or laziness.

Juniors and internationals and international juniors

Ask any one involved with Juniors lacrosse in the South and they will tell you that the threat of dwindling membership is always looming. Lacrosse, despite its growth, doesnt have the cultural draw that football and rugby has. It has been an uphill battle for juniors for a century and will continue to be for another century. Moving the lacrosse season away from significant competition could mean a more stable source of participants if only because British parents dont really like their kids and would want to dump them off on the lacrosse clubs during the football of season. Hey, as long as they are paying and playing, I'm not sure I care how we get them.

I'm going to preface this by saying that any one who knows me knows how much I love England and how proud I have been to part of the English lacrosse community during my years living in London. I proudly wear my club and South gear around in the States and talk to anyone I can about English lacrosse and its energy, enthusiasm, and growth.

With that out of the way - there is always a bit of English traditionalism when discussing restructuring the way things have always been done. This noble English trait is keeping the sport back, particularly when it comes to developing a truly competitive international team. The fact of the matter is that the English international team is not and has never been as strong as it could be. Part of the reason for this is a an inadequate juniors system that gets children playing the game but does not craft out elite skill. Before you all start quoting me a few exceptional juniors - a handful of standouts is not proof that the system is generating elite talent. The US/Canada juniors programmes are producing scores more every year. The standouts in England are standouts because they are exceptional, but there could and should be more of them. For every one Ollie Barett there are dozens who could be better with better training programmes. American/Canadian children arent better athletes. They are just better challenged by their trainers and by the rising level of competition and standard in their age groups.

I agree with Matt that getting a stick into a child's hand at 8 rather than 18 makes them more likely to get closer to the level necessary for international play. However, its not that American and Canadian children start at 8 that makes them better. It's the system. Any 10 year old who started playing lax at 8 in the States is more likely to be a stronger player with better fundamentals and handle of the game than the typical English 10 year who also started at the same age. This has nothing to do with the child's athletic ability but the quality of the training system they are immersed in. There are plenty of people in the southern Prem who started playing at a young age, none of whom are capable of truly competing at the international standard (no, I dont count Ireland, Wales, and Scotland as international standard despite all their hard work.) England can and should be the elite of the international tier 2 teams. It can dominate Australia and Japan and it can walk onto the field against the US or Canada and not get repeatedly spanked by 20 goals. Instead they put up disappointing results every four years at the world games. Does anyone think that the Aussies or Japanese are going to get weaker? England struggled with them last time and all the american-style documentaries in the world arent going lead to lasting success in the worlds.

England desperately needs a version of the American/Canadian style juniors systems fueled by participation and numbers. This is more likely to happen in the summer than it is in the winter. This is a long term investment that requires a very long term view. The pay offs from it will only come in several generations down the line.

The hard truth is that the way things have always been done has taken English lacrosse far, but maybe it can't take it much further. The idea to restructure Southern lacrosse to the summer is a necessary and major step in building the next century of lacrosse in England. It is one of many steps that needs to be taken, but it is a vital one.
Last edited by KagedAnimal on Mon Feb 11, 2013 2:36 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Should we move SEMLA to the Summer?

Postby kael101 Sun Feb 10, 2013 6:08 pm

KagedAnimal wrote:To all the people arguing that summer is when you spend time with your wives/girlfriends:



Finally, where are all the recent graduates in the SEMLA system? I know many students take up lacrosse at uni only to sell off their it. I have no actual statistics or know if there has ever been an accounting of this. I have always wondered, if men's lacrosse is the fastest growing men's sport in university, why hasnt this led to an explosion in club membership? I know some teams have picked up some recruits, Hillcroft certainly has had success drawing from uni starters. But the numbers just dont seem to translate into the club system. I have always suspected that there simply isn't a good relationship between the clubs and the Unis. Certainly not in London (although I do recognize that Bath, Bristol, and Reading have very strong links with their Uni counterparts). The fact of the matter is that, numerically, the majority of top Southern clubs are in London. It's odd then that this is also the region where the links between clubs and unis are the weakest. A summer league will allow all you souther superstars to step up and show us how important Uni lacrosse is to you by building these links and volunteering a bit of time coaching. Though I suspect this will not happen due to lack of interest and/or laziness.

.


This nails the BUCS to SEMLA/NEMLA transition. I'm not so sure if it's the case of having a good relationship between clubs and local uni, traditionally most players don't tend to stay around at their Uni city but will move home/ to a larger work place AKA London. Whilst the club and uni link may be lowest in London, surely they see a high amount of Graduates playing for them?

Also, how many Clubs actively outreach to University Lacrosse Clubs/Sports departments to let them know that they're recruiting and they would like new players? I would hazard that the vast majority just wait to see who turns up come August/September.
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Re: Should we move SEMLA to the Summer?

Postby FERAL Mon Feb 11, 2013 12:39 am

I am very keen for the lacrosse season to be played in the summer, and for the reference a true bbq starts at 2 and ends when the last person falls. There is officially and possibly legally no room for bbq and lacrosse unless the two are combined in some way. Glad we cleared that up.
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Re: Should we move SEMLA to the Summer?

Postby Moaning Git Mon Feb 11, 2013 12:04 pm

If moving to the summer meant hundreds of new non-university players could be recruited, and that junior programs did not have to compete with football and rugby, then the loss of a handful of uni clubs is a small price to pay.


On point 1. In your dreams!

On point 2. You would still be in competition with football which has a well established summer programme; and do not underestimate the competition you would face from cricket, and not just in relation to pitches.

On another point Summer lacrosse would not kill off University Lacrosse at all as BUCS would still be a Winter sport, however, as League Lacrosse would be played when students are not playing then cross fertilization would be even more difficult than at present. All though there is a lot of talk about the growth of the sport in Unis, I do not see that growth translating into an influx of new qualified club players. I do see a lot of ex Junior players coming back from Uni and re joining clubs, but not many new faces. Is that because clubs do not promote themselves sufficiently, or lacrosse is seen as something cool to do at Uni along with all those other studenty things?

You have already had a couple of clubs say they would not be able to access pitches is a move was made, any loss of clubs would be a big argument against a change, and to ignore these comments are simply respond that you will have to find a new home is insensitive and ignorant.

Back to Junior programmes, talking to the England players at Stockport and Cheadle when they started to play the answer was overwhelmingly 8 or 9. It seems to me that the evidence from the UK and North America is very clear that the best way to develop high quality players is to get them early. However the National squads talent ID programme is committed to finding athletes of all ages who can become National squad players, and over time this twin track approach should bear fruit.

The question of when is the best time of year to run a Junior programme is easily answered, all year! At the moment the overall national strategy runs parallel with the school year, but this is based largely around Pop lacrosse. No one has yet devised a strategy to address the cross over from Pop to field, and at the moment that crossover comes just as the season is ending, so there is a definite need to have events to support junior recruitment from Easter onwards, But that is not a reason at the moment for SEMLA to switch to Summer Leagues as there are very few Junior programmes in the South and little enthusiasm I have been told to develop in that way (If that is not so then SEMLA should be more proacative in promoting such an approach IMOHO). Switching to Summer activity would mean that at the time of most school development activity there would be little or no club activity to promote the crossover, and believe me that is hard work!

The question of LDOs has been mentioned, and it may be because of the lack of Junior development in the SEMLA area that the attitude towards to role of LDOs is different in North and South, but the priority role of the LDO for clubs in the North is recruitment at Junior level, not as players. LDOs have to be paid for, and to get that money their services have to be sold, usually to schools, this means working in the School year, so if there is a switch to Summer leagues will clubs continue to fund them simply as players? Maybe there is more spare money in the south, so Pom may be right perhaps Northern players will move south for the Summer.

As I have said before, the debate if for the South to have, but where the impact is on the development of the sport as a whole, there are other views that will need to be taken into account.
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Re: Should we move SEMLA to the Summer?

Postby UKLacrosse Mon Feb 11, 2013 12:53 pm

An interesting article in a recent edition of IL, concerning the amazing performance of the Iroquois to beat the USA U19's. The claim was that the USA were able to 'invite' to trial from a pool of 100,000 players within that age group!! A reason why US players are queuing up to find teams to play on at any World Championships.
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Re: Should we move SEMLA to the Summer?

Postby S_24_LAX Mon Feb 11, 2013 5:35 pm

Why has my post been removed?
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Re: Should we move SEMLA to the Summer?

Postby davidmcculloch81 Tue Feb 12, 2013 7:26 pm

KagedAnimal wrote:There is always a bit of English traditionalism when discussing restructuring the way things have always been done. This noble English trait is keeping the sport back, particularly when it comes to developing a truly competitive international team


This pretty much sums up exactly how I feel about the whole thing.
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Re: Should we move SEMLA to the Summer?

Postby Chilli Tue Feb 12, 2013 9:44 pm

It's easy to think of lacrosse as never changing but in my 45 years in the game, I 've seen the introduction of boundaries, the removal of the stand on the whistle rule, the introduction of the ten-a-side game, rolling substitution, plastic sticks, compulsory helmets and gloves, banning of wooden sticks,endless changes of equipment, dozens of new rules, almost annual changes of rules, every one of which incurred debate about how it would spoil the game or make it less attractive to new players and increase the cost of playing.

Don't forget there wasn't even originally a cross bar on the goal, the change was well before my time but just imagine the arguments that that must have provoked 'it'll ruin the game' 'we can't afford a new crossbar'' 'it's unfair on tall people' 'where will we put the flags?'

To the point about clubs not being able to find new grounds, please bear in mind that the vast majority of clubs in SEMLA have either found a new ground from scratch when they were first formed or changed their ground of their own accord in the last 10-12 years, some more than once.
In fact of the 25 clubs in SEMLA only Buckhurst Hill, Bath, Oxford Uni, Cambridge Uni, Soton Uni and Hitchin are still where they were 12 years ago. Of those only three are clubs who have to find their own grounds.
So new grounds can be found, in all the cases that I can think of the new grounds are better than the previous.
So fear about lack of grounds is not always a valid concern, if the will is there something can almost always be done.
Not one SEMLA club has gone out of existence because of lack of a ground to play at.
IMHO Clubs go out of existence because the members lose interest.

Maybe finding a pitch to play on in Spring/Summer would be harder in some areas and easier in others.
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Re: Should we move SEMLA to the Summer?

Postby rpowell Tue Feb 12, 2013 9:48 pm

Chilli wrote:banning of wooden sticks,

Whoah there! Wooden sticks haven't been banned yet..!
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Re: Should we move SEMLA to the Summer?

Postby Tree13 Wed Feb 13, 2013 2:26 am

Moaning Git wrote:
If moving to the summer meant hundreds of new non-university players could be recruited, and that junior programs did not have to compete with football and rugby, then the loss of a handful of uni clubs is a small price to pay.


On point 1. In your dreams!

Perhaps. But at the moment, football and rugby union players CANNOT participate. No if's, no buts: they just can't. If we we move to summer, then it becomes possible.

Moaning Git wrote:On point 2. You would still be in competition with football which has a well established summer programme; and do not underestimate the competition you would face from cricket, and not just in relation to pitches.

Not familiar with a summer football programme. Happy to be enlightened - please elaborate. As for cricket - I suspect we would open ourselves up to more new youth recruits by allowing access to the football / rugby demographic than we would lose to the cricket demographic. Also consider this: after a cricket match you could conceivably play lacrosse the next day - after a rugby match you're lucky if you can WALK the next day.

The contention that we would struggle to find pitches is erroneous. As Whitey pointed out two or three pages back, we could access football and rugby pitches far more easily than is currently the case. Even if we stay as a winter sport, everything possible should be done to discourage teams from using cricket pitches because they are exclusively grass and therefore most vulnerable to waterlogging / freezing solid / cutting up / turning into swamp / being unusable for weeks on end.

Moaning Git wrote:On another point Summer lacrosse would not kill off University Lacrosse at all as BUCS would still be a Winter sport,

Agreed. In fact, I've already said that.

Moaning Git wrote:however, as League Lacrosse would be played when students are not playing then cross fertilization would be even more difficult than at present.

Disagree. As Kaged and Kael pointed out above, the real problem regarding the issue of poor club recruitment of BUCS players has not adequately been identified. But if we're all going to hazard an HONEST guess, it's because the clubs aren't doing enough. Part of the reason for this is that in winter the clubs play SEMLA lacrosse and there simply aren't enough hours in the week for SEMLA players to play on a saturday AND then coach/ref/recruit at their local BUCS team. By switching SEMLA to the summer, you free up the winter for SEMLA players, allowing them to become more active with their local BUCS team. This model already works in American football, where the BUCS league runs on sundays in the winter and the senior national leagues run in the summer. There are huge numbers of uni players going on into senior ball, and large numbers of BUCS teams have senior league players as coaches.

Moaning Git wrote:All though there is a lot of talk about the growth of the sport in Unis, I do not see that growth translating into an influx of new qualified club players. I do see a lot of ex Junior players coming back from Uni and re joining clubs, but not many new faces. Is that because clubs do not promote themselves sufficiently, or lacrosse is seen as something cool to do at Uni along with all those other studenty things?

I suspect the clubs are not promoting themselves as well as they could, but I have nothing concrete to support the theory.

Moaning Git wrote:You have already had a couple of clubs say they would not be able to access pitches is a move was made, any loss of clubs would be a big argument against a change, and to ignore these comments are simply respond that you will have to find a new home is insensitive and ignorant.

I don't appreciate the name-calling, sunshine; don't do it again.

Anyone who states categorically that their club could not survive a change to the summer on the basis that they could not find a pitch is, IMHO, making a kneejerk response without actually TRYING to find out if they could find an alternative venue. Football clubs, rugby clubs and schools ALL spring to mind. The clubs that have responded on this particular point have, to their credit, stated that they predict it would pose great difficulties but that the debate should not be curtailed JUST because of this. Bear in mind, every NEW club that springs into existence has to find a home - we've had quite a few more of these in SEMLA than there has been in NEMLA recently, so i'm not surprised you overlooked the point.

Moaning Git wrote:Back to Junior programmes, talking to the England players at Stockport and Cheadle when they started to play the answer was overwhelmingly 8 or 9. It seems to me that the evidence from the UK and North America is very clear that the best way to develop high quality players is to get them early. However the National squads talent ID programme is committed to finding athletes of all ages who can become National squad players, and over time this twin track approach should bear fruit.

The question of when is the best time of year to run a Junior programme is easily answered, all year! At the moment the overall national strategy runs parallel with the school year, but this is based largely around Pop lacrosse. No one has yet devised a strategy to address the cross over from Pop to field, and at the moment that crossover comes just as the season is ending, so there is a definite need to have events to support junior recruitment from Easter onwards, But that is not a reason at the moment for SEMLA to switch to Summer Leagues as there are very few Junior programmes in the South and little enthusiasm I have been told to develop in that way (If that is not so then SEMLA should be more proacative in promoting such an approach IMOHO). Switching to Summer activity would mean that at the time of most school development activity there would be little or no club activity to promote the crossover, and believe me that is hard work!

I think you fail here to appreciate the differences between the north and the south. If we are ever to make any progress with youth development in the south - and there is no lack of enthusiasm for such development - we need to offer youth lacrosse at a time when children are not being gobbled up by football and rugby union, and we need to offer it in better weather to encourage "buy-in" from parents and children alike. Part and parcel of that involves showing them what they are working towards IE senior lacrosse. Junior lacrosse in the morning, reffed and coached by seniors who then play their own fixtures straight afterwards, is a sensible model, is it not? There is very little buy-in from schools down south and whilst there are steps being taken to alter this, it would be foolish to wait for a sea-change in the schools sector to lead youth development as this sea-change could conceivably be another ten years away.

Moaning Git wrote:The question of LDOs has been mentioned, and it may be because of the lack of Junior development in the SEMLA area that the attitude towards to role of LDOs is different in North and South, but the priority role of the LDO for clubs in the North is recruitment at Junior level, not as players. LDOs have to be paid for, and to get that money their services have to be sold, usually to schools, this means working in the School year, so if there is a switch to Summer leagues will clubs continue to fund them simply as players? Maybe there is more spare money in the south, so Pom may be right perhaps Northern players will move south for the Summer.

Or maybe the LDOs could still come over as they currently do, during the school year, working in schools? :roll:

Moaning Git wrote:As I have said before, the debate if for the South to have, but where the impact is on the development of the sport as a whole, there are other views that will need to be taken into account.

If SEMLA debates whether SEMLA wants to move the SEMLA league to the summer, on the basis that doing so will serve to increase participation levels, and SEMLA agrees that it does - then it will. If SEMLA weighs up the options and decides not to shift to the summer then fair enough; but it's SEMLA's decision to make.
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Re: Should we move SEMLA to the Summer?

Postby Moaning Git Wed Feb 13, 2013 11:16 am

Tree, I seem to wind you up, not sure why, maybe you just don't like to have your opinions challenged

You really have a chip on your shoulder on the North South question, sorry but I do not suffer from the same immaturity, my concern is not for such petty differences in the sport, so try taking off your blinkers.

As for my comments on the development of a Junior programme in the South, unlike you I have spoken about the situation in some depth with those who have such a programme, who also those who have considered such an approach and decided against it. You have your opinion, I have theirs which are more relevant. And your throwaway comments re LDOs, simply illustrates your ignorance on the matter.

As for
I don't appreciate the name-calling, sunshine; don't do it again.
, I did not mention you, but then again if the cap fits wear it.

And remember, SEMLA are not a separate and independent organisation from the ELA, they are part of it. If the decision is taken to move towards a Summer league, and that move is seen as being for the benefit of the whole sport, then I am sure that it will gain MPC support. If however it is felt to be a counterproductive move potentially damaging to clubs and the sport, then I cannot see how it can be agreed.

So instead of haranguing those who do not support your own personal view, I suggest you start listening, educate your own opinion, and consider pragmatically how the potential problems can be addressed.

I repeat, as you seem unable to let this sink in, just because I choose to point out a few matters that are inconvenient to your sweeping and half considered arguments does not mean that I am opposed to the principle. It simply means that I need the answers to my questions before I am convinced. I look forward for example to the SEMLA strategic plan on the development of recruitment and Junior development that will emerge from this proposed change!
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Re: Should we move SEMLA to the Summer?

Postby S_24_LAX Wed Feb 13, 2013 12:19 pm

Can't wait to hear the SEMLA Secretary's response to that one MG.

I believe he's a solicitor or something along that line.
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Re: Should we move SEMLA to the Summer?

Postby S_24_LAX Wed Feb 13, 2013 12:28 pm

For my six penny worth.

I am too old to be fussed really. 30 years ago I would have jumped at the opportunity to play rugby in the winter and lax in the summer. And cricket mid week.

My major concern is the impact on clubs and the facilities. At Epsom we have spent the last 3 years getting in the door. Our ground is a cricket ground and we would lose the facility. I seriously do not believe a similar facility would be available during the summer months in the same locality. This would be a huge problem for Epsom as a club. I assume similar problems at Buckhurst Hill, Spencer, Hitchin, Reading and more. The time scale to me is too tight to ensure adequate facilities. Some lacrosse clubs are negotiating or committing to become full members of the sports club rather than pitch renting members.

I know these difficulties may be over come but I do feel it would have a significant impact on clubs and club development in terms if location and facilities.
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Re: Should we move SEMLA to the Summer?

Postby Blind Zebra Wed Feb 13, 2013 1:16 pm

There is not one shred of evidence that a move to abandon winter lacrosse and play in the summer only would increase the pace at which lacrosse expands. Those in favour of this base the view on opinion and speculation not on market research, or facts and data.

Lacrosse is presently the fastest growing field sport in England based on facts and data audited by Sport England.

I have no problem with folk playing summer lacrosse if they so wish. Live and let live. But why stop the winter programme and abandon the most successful sport expansion programme in this country?

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Re: Should we move SEMLA to the Summer?

Postby Chilli Wed Feb 13, 2013 1:30 pm

There is not one shred of evidence that a move to abandon winter lacrosse and play in the summer only would increase the pace at which lacrosse expands. Those in favour of this base the view on opinion and speculation not on market research, or facts and data.


The same is necessarily true of those who favour no change, there can be no absolute certainty about either choice.
However well the game has done recently in the South and in the Universities , how can anyone 'know' that it wouldn't grow even faster in better weather?

This thread is only the start of the debate.

A SEMLA Sub-committee is preparing a detailed questionnaire to go out to all clubs for their views.

The accumulation of their responses and discussions at the SEMLA Committee over several meetings may, if appropriate, result in a formal proposal to Clubs to move the season.
Equally the view may be to stick as we are.
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Re: Should we move SEMLA to the Summer?

Postby Blind Zebra Wed Feb 13, 2013 1:49 pm

That's not true, Chilli.

The point is that there is evidence that the current model is very successful. The only evidence on summer lacrosse is that all attempts to get it going have ended in failure.

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Re: Should we move SEMLA to the Summer?

Postby lead_head11 Wed Feb 13, 2013 2:43 pm

Why take the drastic step of moving the entire season to the summer. Why not initially try a winter break, finish in December an then start back in Feb. Will make the season a bit longer but as a first step it may help and will not interfere with the big issue of development in schools as we will still be playing well within the term times.
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Re: Should we move SEMLA to the Summer?

Postby S_24_LAX Wed Feb 13, 2013 2:57 pm

Many would say we have this year
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Re: Should we move SEMLA to the Summer?

Postby Moaning Git Wed Feb 13, 2013 5:10 pm

Sweet riposte!

Solicitor! Ooh now I am scared!

What about holding the Southern Flags as a Summer competition, that would free up some weekends in the Winter and give a practical trial to the Summer games idea.
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UKLacrosse
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Re: Should we move SEMLA to the Summer?

Postby UKLacrosse Wed Feb 13, 2013 8:33 pm

Moaning Git wrote:Sweet riposte!

Solicitor! Ooh now I am scared!

What about holding the Southern Flags as a Summer competition, that would free up some weekends in the Winter and give a practical trial to the Summer games idea.

Might see an improvement on the large percentage of conceded games, or is 10-0 a fairly regular scoreline?
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