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mully
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Postby mully Tue Dec 18, 2007 2:23 pm

What are the exact rules on goalkeeper's equipment? I thought only ELA approved lacrosse manufacturer stuff can be worn. One of the premier league teams goalkeeper was wearing cricket leg pads in a match, surely that's not allowed?
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kayftara
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Postby kayftara Tue Dec 18, 2007 2:58 pm

Good question! Why anybody would want to wear cricket pads beats me, they can only slow you down and restrict movement.

If the rules were strictly applied, we would not see any players wearing ice hockey helmets either!
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Postby robbo Fri Dec 21, 2007 7:48 pm

The maximum thickness of goalkeeper padding is 3cm and must not be worn in such a way that it does not increase the width of the goalkeeper by greater than this amount (i.e. must be worn tightly and securely).

So far as helmets go, the vast majority of ice-hockey helmets are certified as lacrosse helemts. At present there is no definition in the IFWLA rules as to what constitutes a helme,t so I think that common sense should prevail!
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Postby kayftara Fri Dec 21, 2007 9:31 pm

If common sense prevailed , we would not have the majority of women players playing to one set of rules and the minority playing to another.

Women's lacrosse will never be taken seriously as a global sport whilst the dichotomy on sticks prevails.

The IFWLA, whilst well meaning has little chance of bringing about stick standardisation.

It now needs to rethink its position.
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UKLacrosse
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Postby UKLacrosse Fri Dec 21, 2007 10:58 pm

Are the 'vast majority of hockey helmets' certified as lacrosse helmets? Certified by who? I do not believe that's true in the USA, and I'm almost as sure that is not true outside of the US.

On the question of women's sticks and IFWLA rules, there is far more abuse of IFWLA rules than anyone is prepared to admit! The fact is that there are only a limited number of referees who know and can recognise those approved and those disapproved.
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robbo
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Postby robbo Sat Dec 22, 2007 12:38 am

Maybe 'vast majority' is an overstatement on my part, but when I played ice hockey, I recall regularly seeing stickers and documentation stating that they were approved for ice hockey, ringette and lacrosse. I think it is CSA that certify helmets in Canada.

As for illegal sticks, I know that they are checked thoroughly before all senior representative tournaments and JTT and that those umpires concerned take stick checking seriously - I for one check stick legality before every game I umpire be it a Territorial play off game, a BUSA regional game or a friendly. I take it as being in the job description to not only know the legal sticks on the market, but also to be able to identify illegal ones in play.
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Postby kayftara Sat Dec 22, 2007 1:09 am

IFWLA rules simply mention 'helmets' for goalkeepers. there is no further definintion, so any helmet would be allowed; cycling, polo, cricket et al.

However, the concept of a universal helmet for any sport is erroneous. The safest option for lacrosse is to wear only a purpose made lacrosse helmet.
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UKLacrosse
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Postby UKLacrosse Sat Dec 22, 2007 11:05 am

Rob, it may be semantics but there is a difference between 'certified' and 'approved'.

I recognise that you have a better knowledge than most, and I wouldn't argue with that. The fact is that there are many illegal sticks being used both here in the UK and in Europe. I've had instances where I've been told that the coach/ teacher has said its ok, or where I've seen girls using illegal sticks. There are online stores in Europe offering non-IFWLA approved women's sticks.
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Postby robbo Sat Dec 22, 2007 11:28 am

I agree totally - I know I'm somewhat playign devil's advocate but until there is such a time that there is a, dare I say it, enforced rule on what constitues a lacrosse helmet then a certain degree of common sense has to prevail. Obviously I'm not condoning the use of a cyclcing helmet, but I don't think I'd necessarily pursue the issue of a player wearing a hockey helmet with appropriate neck protection at non representative level. At representative level, that's what we have Technical Delegates for :lol:

Ice hockey went down the line of saying that helmets without HECC (American) and/or CSA (Candaian) certification could not be worn in games. The only way of telling whether each specific helmet was game fit was to see whether it still had the sticker on, which as you can imagine wasn't the best method.

Although the sport has come on in leaps and bounds, there is still a lot of development to be done for the game as a whole. The differences between NCAA and IFWLA ruels on stick legality being the obvious one. The plus side of these sticks is that the lacrosse can be faster, more powerful and more physical. The downside, on safety grounds, is that so much more force is required to get the ball out of a stick. To counteract this and ensure the game remains safe would see the introduction of mandatory eyewear (as already seen in USA) and ever more padded gloves, and now players over the pond are even wearing bicep pads. I guess it all comes down to the direciton in which the games makers want us to move, and we as umpires just have to go with it - we don't make the rules, we just enforce them.

I think you made a good point though, Keith, about the number of people that have been buying illegal sticks abroad and briging them over here. I will raise this as a concern at the next Rules and Umpiring meeting in a couple of weeks. I guess the only way to prevent it is education, which has to start at a grass routes level!
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wildcat
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Postby wildcat Sat Dec 22, 2007 4:55 pm

Since rules and approved/certified has come up....

On the helmet side of things, my understanding is that there is only one helmet that is european certified.

This, I think, could open a crate of trouble one day if a helmet 'failed' and someone got injured. Any legal boffins out there? just curious - would that then be the vendors at fault?
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Postby robbo Sat Dec 22, 2007 4:59 pm

I think that is something that the insurers would have to decide on, and unless it is stipulated that the helmet must be CE approved in the policy than I guess anything goes. At the last world cup, one of the women's goalkeepers wore a cricket helmet with a throat guard!
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Postby kayftara Sat Dec 22, 2007 5:53 pm

It is 4 years since the IFWLA stick rules came in and ever since some players through design or ignorance buy non approved sticks. Many dealers outside the UK do not understand the rules or have any interest in doing so, after all, to them a sale is better than no sale.

Some sticks come with tags that say they are compliant with the rules, even though they are not approved. So, even more confusion reigns.

You cannot educate people unless they want to be educated, so whilst the dichotomy prevails we shall always have this problem. Tough umpiring is needed. If all umpires threw out the illegal sticks, then we could see progress, at the same time , people coming to this country to teach should be schooled thoroughly in the rules.

I have first hand knowledge of american coach's buying non approved sticks for their pupils.

Buyers should just go to responsible dealers who are up to date with the rules

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UKLacrosse
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Postby UKLacrosse Sat Dec 22, 2007 9:28 pm

There are more non-IFWLA approved sticks being launched than IFWLA approved ones. I would suggest that is based on sound business sense, as currently the majority of women players in the game do not play to IFWLA rules.

As the growth of the game within the US outstrips the growth outside the US, that number is increasing far quicker than those playing to IFWLA rules. Don't the Japanese still follow the US stick rules and only conform to IFWLA at World Championships? Unless someone knows that the NCAA has plans to implement IFWLA rules soon, the situation is going to become far worse over the next few years.
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dblacklock
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Postby dblacklock Sat Dec 22, 2007 11:40 pm

I referee mens lacrosse here in the UK, but originally came from Canada where I refereed both Box and Field Lacrosse. I can assure you that none of the ice hockey helmet manufacturers certify their helmets for lacrosse. The CSA certification is much too expensive for the Canadian Lacrosse Association to undertake. The CLA does allow ice hockey helmets (with approved facemasks) or NOCSAE approved helmets. For more information on the CLA directive on equipment for lacrosse check out

http://www.lacrosse.ca/default.aspx?cid=258&lang=1

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