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wildcat
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Late hit

Postby wildcat Thu Apr 11, 2013 12:07 pm

Is this the least looked at forum?
Not a huge number of women's refs on here, but I thought I'd ask anyway.

Red (attacking) v Blue

Red throws a feed which lands in a players stick in front of cage. She shoots and scores whilst face planting in the ground.
She is falling because Blue D pushed her in the back.
In men's lacrosse that's could be, depending on timing, a push in the back / a late hit / Unnecessary roughness....

I'm seeing more and more "dessert" being dished out on shooters in the hole in the women's game, and nothing being called. Refs make ridiculous calls of a big toe on the crease a couple of seconds after the ball has gone in, but are failing, in my opinion, to keep it safe on this one.

want an example:
goto http://tv.englishlacrosse.co.uk 2.40 minutes in the southwest/southeast final.
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chippie
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Re: Late hit

Postby chippie Sun Apr 14, 2013 10:16 am

Just depends on the umpires...some are very good at those goal circle calls and some are very good at spotting rough play.

Watching replays in hindsight makes it easier to judge the play, however even in this you could argue if there was intention to knock attacker over of if it was momentum, then you could look at the resulting play, did it interfere with the goal scoring opportunity, or was it after....if the goal wasnt scored do you bring back for a free position? if the goal was scored would you give a foul on the re-start or would you penalise player with a unsportsmanlike foul (yellow)??

what i would say is that this year has seen more yellow cards in games than any other year...
are players getting rougher or are officials getting stricter?
"Train to win, Play to win" "Shoot first. Ask questions later"

"the way to beat a tight crease is a quick stick"

It's not the team with the best athletes, it's the athlete's with the best team

My views and opinions are my own and do not reflect views or opinions of any other club, organisation, institution.
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Re: Late hit

Postby wildcat Sun Apr 14, 2013 8:09 pm

your point about the video review, I agree, completely. It is very difficult to feedback to referees without sounding bitter and always easier to make the call when looking at video.
But in that game there were three sticks making contact with heads that were not called, one yellow for a "dangerous shot" that wasn't dangerous (much easier with the retrospectoscope), one that was dangerous, that was not called.

My personal favourite remains the goggles around the chin, on the ball carrier as they have been knocked down by a stick! You know that I am an unashamed advocate of goggles. But refs have to keep things tight.

My own call (and I couldnt find the exact line in the rule book) would have been, take a seat for 2 minutes, and opposition start with the ball, goal stands. What should the call have been?
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Re: Late hit

Postby UKLacrosse Sun Apr 14, 2013 9:24 pm

I've always understood that 'safety' was the prime consideration in women's lacrosse?
If that is true then any play which is dangerous, regardless of intent, should be penalised. That should also be the case
even if a goal is scored.
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Re: Late hit

Postby chippie Tue Apr 16, 2013 8:57 am

no one is argueing against keeping the game safe...but there is a difference when it comes to intent...that also makes for a difference between a minor foul/yellow/red, for example if 2 players collide into each other going for a ball, is there intent for one to knock another over...no, however if one goes in to 'block'/knock/push the other is there a foul...yes and if its done in a way that is reckless then your looking at sending off!
Players also have a duty of safety to other players!

Raj, if i was a video umpire that could sport, rewind and see that in a blink of a second i would have judged that to be part of the play, and would play an advantage...goal scored, play over, player receives a yellow card. I would say that ball goes to a draw, however i think the rules would be that team fouled start with the ball (dont quote me on that).

Maybe part of the assessing process is to review game footage of officials, even the assessors miss somethings which the camera picks up. Saying that, with the advantage of the camera, i have seen some officials make some spot all calls which players disagreed with!
"Train to win, Play to win" "Shoot first. Ask questions later"

"the way to beat a tight crease is a quick stick"

It's not the team with the best athletes, it's the athlete's with the best team

My views and opinions are my own and do not reflect views or opinions of any other club, organisation, institution.
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Re: Late hit

Postby wildcat Tue Apr 16, 2013 1:03 pm

There are some things that are about intent, but a lot of women's calls (and men's calls) are not about intent, but about safety.

shooting space - players often not intending to be in front of the goal (sometimes do, to put them on a hash instead)
dangerous follow through - unintentionally having their stick follow through be close to someone.

In the video clip, there was no intention to play the ball. she coudlnt see either nipple, so not even close to being playing body from the side.

If refs have a good game, they get a handshake lasting a second and a "good game". Do they review video of their performances - rarely if at all, and being critical of a ref probably only alienates the person asking the question.
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Re: Late hit

Postby chippie Tue Apr 16, 2013 2:40 pm

so in an ideal world...what would be the best solution...
more training, different approach to assessing officials...?
what needs to be done at the different levels and by who?
"Train to win, Play to win" "Shoot first. Ask questions later"

"the way to beat a tight crease is a quick stick"

It's not the team with the best athletes, it's the athlete's with the best team

My views and opinions are my own and do not reflect views or opinions of any other club, organisation, institution.
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Re: Late hit

Postby chippie Sat Apr 20, 2013 7:55 am

What do you think about the amount of stick on body now days....almost seems the norm that players can 'cross-check'
"Train to win, Play to win" "Shoot first. Ask questions later"

"the way to beat a tight crease is a quick stick"

It's not the team with the best athletes, it's the athlete's with the best team

My views and opinions are my own and do not reflect views or opinions of any other club, organisation, institution.
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Re: Late hit

Postby wildcat Sat Apr 20, 2013 5:17 pm

Interesting thought.
i think one of the most difficult calls is (attckers) charge vs (defensive) push. The norm used to be that it often got called in the attackers favour, less so, I think, but still favours the attacker. A 70kg girl running at 8-9 metres a second, meeting a 70kg girl, braced for them making contact is going to be a noticeable collision. What you see if refs calling it in favour of the the person that falls over, which is not necessarily the right call.
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Re: Late hit

Postby wildcat Sat Apr 20, 2013 5:20 pm

but....that said.
it is an on ball play, which might need to be reffed better.
But the example I gave is in the back, with no possible way of the D getting the ball legally. And I'd like to know what the refs were watching if not the feed in, and the goal scorer!
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Re: Late hit

Postby chippie Sun Apr 21, 2013 9:59 pm

its on and off ball...
what happens when its not an attacker running but defenders pushing out using the shaft of their sticks. I think this happens more often than late contact. And having a shaft forced through the back, kidneys or arm is not pleasant, guess the next set of equipment for women will be rib and arm-pads

anyways...what would be your suggestion on having a better system?
"Train to win, Play to win" "Shoot first. Ask questions later"

"the way to beat a tight crease is a quick stick"

It's not the team with the best athletes, it's the athlete's with the best team

My views and opinions are my own and do not reflect views or opinions of any other club, organisation, institution.
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wildcat
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Re: Late hit

Postby wildcat Mon Apr 22, 2013 6:26 pm

Get 200 video clips of it happening (charge vs push)
Get a room full of refs
Make them watch in a random order the 200 clips 2 or 3 times (600 clips)
And see how well they agree with 1. each other and 2. themselves.

Next question....ready....In my brief look, I cant find a rule that covers it
Goalie leaves crease to make an interception.
Misses the interception. Opposition collect ball, move a couple of steps and shoot into an empty goal.
Goalie throws stick into crease to try and save ball. Does or Does not score - what's the call?

In men's celebrating a goal by throwing a stick in the air, being pissed off and throwing your stick into the ground wins you a two minute penalty doesn't it?!
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Re: Late hit

Postby rpowell Tue Apr 23, 2013 12:19 am

wildcat wrote:Goalie leaves crease to make an interception.
Misses the interception. Opposition collect ball, move a couple of steps and shoot into an empty goal.
Goalie throws stick into crease to try and save ball. Does or Does not score - what's the call?

If you throw your stick (not at someone, just towards the ball) it's a Minor foul. Assume the goal is prevented, in which case:

From the context, this is likely to be taking place in front of goal, so the nearest attacker to the keeper will get the ball out on the 15 metre line. The keeper will be placed placed 4 metres away, in the same relative position as when the foul occurred. *

* Probably. I'm an experienced referee but a novice umpire.
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Re: Late hit

Postby chippie Tue Apr 23, 2013 8:00 am

wildcat wrote:Get 200 video clips of it happening (charge vs push)
Get a room full of refs
Make them watch in a random order the 200 clips 2 or 3 times (600 clips)
And see how well they agree with 1. each other and 2. themselves.


would you also stick coaches in there and see how many calls they get wrong :wink:

I agree its a minor foul!!

depends on the full situation...
if throwing of stick is deemed dangerous/stopping a certain goal then this would be a misconduct major foul and could be a green/yellow...free position on 11, gk behind.
"Train to win, Play to win" "Shoot first. Ask questions later"

"the way to beat a tight crease is a quick stick"

It's not the team with the best athletes, it's the athlete's with the best team

My views and opinions are my own and do not reflect views or opinions of any other club, organisation, institution.
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wildcat
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Re: Late hit

Postby wildcat Tue Apr 23, 2013 12:39 pm

Definitely put coaches in there!

And re stick. If goals goes in it was still out of control/dangerous to throw a stick.
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Re: Late hit

Postby rpowell Tue Apr 23, 2013 8:52 pm

chippie wrote:I agree its a minor foul!!

depends on the full situation...
if throwing of stick is deemed dangerous/stopping a certain goal then this would be a misconduct major foul and could be a green/yellow...free position on 11, gk behind.


It's an interesting one - just because it stops a certain goal, does that make it a major? Can we sell that when the rules specifically state that non-dangerous throwing of a stick is a minor?

Maybe it's situational:
(a) if I'm officiating a couple of 2nd teams in a BUCS match, and there's already a 10 goal differential at half-time, I'd be inclined to call it a minor with a stern warning not to do it again.
(b) if it's Australia v USA in the World Cup Final, there's one goal in the game and 20 seconds to go...

Not that I need to worry about (b)!
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Re: Late hit

Postby wildcat Sun Jun 16, 2013 12:08 pm

I'm not the only one who has noticed it!
NCAA proposed rule change:

and putting more emphasis on a major foul on a goal scorer. If a major foul is committed on a goal scorer — a push or a cross check during or after the shot, for example — the goal will stand and the scoring team awarded possession at the center circle.
“Right now there's no penalty for that foul,” Cunningham said. “In the past, the thought process was that you got the goal, so it was ok. But it's dangerous so we wanted to make sure we cleaned that up.”
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Re: Late hit

Postby chippie Fri Jun 21, 2013 8:25 pm

Will need to see if this comes into international rules....
and how things will be interpreted at the WC...
"Train to win, Play to win" "Shoot first. Ask questions later"

"the way to beat a tight crease is a quick stick"

It's not the team with the best athletes, it's the athlete's with the best team

My views and opinions are my own and do not reflect views or opinions of any other club, organisation, institution.
SokSareth
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Re: Late hit

Postby SokSareth Wed Jul 05, 2017 8:45 am

The referee and his assistants didn't feel it was worth looking at again, although it appeared to be late and we've seen similar tackles dealt with ...

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