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Mr.Stanford
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Postby Mr.Stanford Mon Oct 23, 2006 8:09 am

Italia I think that’s a bit unreasonable. There are not enough good U19 players (from what I have seen) in the south to warrant a trail down here. And as long as there is an open trial then it would be the whole of Englnd.

And guys everyone keeps re-iterating the same point.

So far I don’t think anyone has said ‘no southerners allowed’. Good ok, and just about everyone has agreed that the trials should be at a northern club.

Excellent. Great. So that’s what we all want.

So open trials, up North! That I totally agree on.

What the Southern potentials may want to think about doing is finding a northern U19 team to play for and hop a train up to play in the U19 league. That way they can see if they are up to scratch rather than what southern players keep telling them. And if they are off the mark they will know what they need to work on.
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Postby italia Mon Oct 23, 2006 8:18 am

Mr.Stanford,

Have you been down south and wacth the under 19 players??
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Postby Mr.Stanford Mon Oct 23, 2006 8:51 am

I live and play down south. And am giving my opinion based on what i have seen from playing the various teams around.
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Postby blues24ianb Mon Oct 23, 2006 11:48 am

As Junior Development Chair in the South I would like to make a few clear comments about how the game is developing.

Most clubs in the South now have a junior development programme under way. There are something like 16 LDO's and a CSSC working in the South. All age groups are being developed and we are working hard to get a structure in place to maximise the conversion from School exposure to Pop through to playing for clubs.

It is true we do not have the depth of junior participation at club level at present but it is growing. At the Holder Trophy a couple of weeks ago there was plenty of young children playing thier first competitive match. Reading Schools played thier first match on Saturday against the International School of Brussels narrowly losing 5:6. So on the last 2 weekends I have personally seen how children are becoming involved in our sport and how the south is trying it's best to develop.

I am not going in to the North/South debate again. Merely to say I travelled up North for England trials and training when I was younger and would probally feel the same as Grub. If I feel good enough to play and want a chance I would maximise my efforts to get involved. All I would like is for them to be given the chance to be seen.

The South did send an under 18 side to the Ted Donnet. Most of this team were u 16 last season. As has been pointed out they don't get the opportunity to play many competitive matches due to lack of depth of numbers - accordingly we are not in the position yet to run an U19 league. I would love to see this at some stage as it certainly gives a great opportunity to improve your game alongside players of the same age.

The team that played at the Ted Donnet learnt from the experience, yes we failed to win a game but were extremely close against Timperley. All the games were close except Wac's who went on to win the trophy. Grub ask some of the coaches who we played against what they thought.

If it is commitment you are asking for these lads travelled there and back in a day for 48 minutes of lacrosse. A round trip drive of in excess of 10 hours. I think that's pretty committed.

In terms of the competitive games against Counties, these are already arranged with Yorkshire and discussions are well under way with Cheshire and Lancashire.

I hope this gives you some honest information on Southern Junior Lacrosse and allows a better understanding of how it is being developed.

I think most people in this post are just saying create an opportunity for all players to be seen and then select the best to represent the England team in the Worlds. Good luck to all those who try out and let's hope for continued success and development.
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Postby morrell_ben Mon Oct 23, 2006 2:35 pm

Just on a slightly different note.......

English Uni trials were held this year, for the first time in a while, and were held at Warwick Uni, to try to bridge the North/South divide. Now i know that English Uni's isn't nearly as highly regarded as England U19's, but i do believe that due to the spread of England, for a 1 day trial, there were only 25 in attendance and location was A factor.As such, the team we picked i believe was in fact a lower standard than the team in 2005 in which i was a part of (2005 was done on a phone around/word of mouth/well known northern players at uni type thing...).
HOWEVER, this years' team was more representative of the country. I think communication was a major problem in not getting people there. I wouldn't draw any conclusions off this post, but needless to say, the distance from Durham to Warwick or south coast to warwick is still a 3/4 hr drive. I think, unfortunately especially with student budgets, this put people off coming, and i believe the standard of the team dropped. - just thoughts, it is a different kettle of fish for england U19's.

But then again, in the USA/Australia, we are talking mega distances to travel to trials/regional trials even, i think the venue is irrelevant, look at the numbers of people, make it more accessible to the majority (travel-wise), anywhere in the UK afterall, isn't really that far away, i remember trials for U19 - only 5 miles up the road - v.convenient, but a chance to wear your countries colours at international level playing in Canada is at stake here, if you want it badly enough, its there for you to take, commitment and playing ability is going to shine through regardless of post code!
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Postby JGRUB5 Mon Oct 23, 2006 2:50 pm

If it is commitment you are asking for these lads travelled there and back in a day for 48 minutes of lacrosse. A round trip drive of in excess of 10 hours. I think that's pretty committed.


i never questioned there commitment. they obviously are committed.

i questioned the commitment of the southerners on here going on with themselves

"its not fair we want trials down here". "its not fair, northerners hate us", "its not fair, you might aswel call it north england if your not giving us a chance" ,

its quite petty really.
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Postby Steely Dan Mon Oct 23, 2006 2:58 pm

I for one would have no problem with an entire northern based england team/U19 team provided they are infact the best players


I think the majority of us southerners are quite understanding of the reasoning behind the northern bias (and I don't mean bias in a bad way :wink: )

Personally I think there is a lot of historical aspects afecting the current conversation. If I felt I was good enough (and believe me I don't, I'll know when I am if I ever am) I would travel to Lands end or John o Groats to prove myself.

It would just be quite nice if there was an element of Scouting as well as the players making the effort.
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Postby Delmonte Mon Oct 23, 2006 3:33 pm

Im playing in south, i think trials should be made as convenient to everyone, that means most likely majority being closer to it, but maybe a uni closer to south so the journey isnt too harsh for the ones that do travel.
Like someone else said maybe a place that would benefit from having these decent trails on show would be good, as lacrosse need as much promo as possible.

There is some devide between south and north overwise there wouldn't be constent bickering, and i wouldn't say its just paranoia from southerners as there has to be something to twig that anyways. Lets face it Southerners are keen (maybe a little too, if thats possible) and are probably a generation behind as a whole atm (but doesn't mean all players ar), but it seems some northern players like to rub that in (in your own little ways) i.e some posts on the gammer thread.

One day the North Vs South game will be the highlight of the year! thats if shuttleworths national league doesnt set up.
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Postby import5 Mon Oct 23, 2006 3:39 pm

I think the management should be committed to find the best players in the country, and if they have to travel then they should.
I played for the U19's quiet a few years ago and south of England lacrosse really wasnt on the map but i am sure that has changed. I think they should have a trial down south and then a trial up north and then have a joint one and if that means the final try out being up North so be it, you mentioned them being committed then that is great as the kids from the south will show up and show the north what they have to offer.
I coach in the states and i drive anything from 2-12 hours to find talented lacrosse players for my team (i would usually fly the 12 hour gig but i have driven it before).
I know the management doesnt get paid, probably only compensated but if they want the best team then go find it, there maybe a "diamond in the rough" down south or anywhere else.
It takes time to put on a trial but over a 6 week period you can have all 3 trials. North first week, south second week, give a couple of weeks to let everyone know and then hold a final session.
I thought i might comment, i think the England program is going places but they should be open to all players as the hot beds of lacrosse are changing and even if you find a couple of players down south the management has still given every oppurtunity to the south to push there best players to be the best they can be, an England International, the south may surprise a couple of people not that i have seen a south game in years but i have contacts down there.
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Postby Moaning Git Mon Oct 23, 2006 4:05 pm

One of the big problems it seems to me (and I may be wrong as I don't have a historical perspective) is the club system. Certainly in NEMLA everything seems to revolve around the clubs, and because they produced what was widely recognised as the "best" players, management also developed in these areas, Selection seems to have been very much based on word of mouth between coaches, and by watching players at league level. As there was very little interplay between North and South these opportunities to be spotted were few and far between.

I am not sure what role if any was played in all this by University teams, maybe somone else could comment on that.

The England management and coaching squad seem to be based largely in the North, and the ones I know have club and league commitments that would leave them precious little time to travel the country on spotting missions. But if they were to drop their club commitments there would be rumbles of discontent.

If we want want a professional management team, and fully operative selection process including talent scouts etc, I think we would have to pay a going rate for it. The question is would clubs, and individuals be willing to see a hike in fees to pay for it. I know the majority of the senior club players I know would not. So that brings us back to open selections, by invitation at an affordable venue, and individuals funding their own application.

Oh the joys of being a minority sport!
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Postby Tom_Southampton Mon Oct 23, 2006 4:24 pm

it looks like almost everyone agrees.
Nobody minds travelling to trials if they are percieved to be fair and open.
Pretty much everyone accepts that total mileage traveled for everyone is minimised if the trials are in the manchester area.
Everybody wants to put out the best team possible
so whats the problem.
Lets have an 'open' tryout anyone under 19 can go, it will be in manchester. players could be categorised into 3 groups
1. given feedback and dropped
2. given points to work on and asked to turn up to session 2
3. essentially the same as 2 but are more definate than group2. still should be given feedback and asked back.

Session 2 would be 6 weeks further on. gives everyone the chance to go away and put maximum effort in for six weeks on whatever is suggested and then come back. the group ones (the gammers?) have already been weeded out.
the coaches can assess a reasonable number of players, can see who is dedicated, who has worked hard on what they have been asked to work hard on and pick a squad.
all happy.
maybe (opens can of worms) the ELA or SEMLA (or indeed NEMLA, who benefits most) could provide a SMALL bursary for travel up north for particularly promising youngsters
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Postby blues24ianb Mon Oct 23, 2006 5:10 pm

"its not fair we want trials down here". "its not fair, northerners hate us", "its not fair, you might aswel call it north england if your not giving us a chance"


I know where you are coming from on this.

Hopefully time will show the changes.

Just in case you don't know I played first of all 30 years plus ago and it was like that then and appears to be slightly still that way now. The South has been represented at Senior level in the past and let's hopw they can again in the future.

North vs South used to be a regular feature on the calender. I played in several. Then it went County. Now it's the British Nationals - was the South 3rd last year?
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Postby big daddy Mon Oct 23, 2006 5:20 pm

blues24ianb wrote: Now it's the British Nationals - was the South 3rd last year?


Correct South beat Wales 7-4 in 3rd place play off with Cheshire beating Scotland 6-3 for the Trophy
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Postby Delmonte Mon Oct 23, 2006 5:31 pm

so south did win a game?
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Postby fifteen peter twenty Mon Oct 23, 2006 6:11 pm

could we see an u19s nationals then, seems like a good way forward...

and the south team would look a bit different if they were to exclude the overseas players
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Postby Sour37 Mon Oct 23, 2006 6:25 pm

Delmonte wrote:so south did win a game?


i think the not winning a game was the u18s who went to the ted donnet at the start of the season (all of about 3 weeks ago!)
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Postby streborkin Mon Oct 23, 2006 6:43 pm

Good grief, everything ends up North South.

As I said before the U19's at the moment can't reallly be changed, and players of that age group have accepted that they have to travel to trial.
No Problems....however...

At the next age tranche U15's we are in danger of losing some potential athletes from around the country, not because of skill/ability, but because their parents, who are pretty ignorent of the game, wont travel with them.

Ergo... less distance, at least in the initial selection, then it gravitate to the majority area.
Travel is a huge element of the game in the South, I for one would like to see one less chunk of time spent on motorways.

Also

Beware: the standard in the South is picking up rapidly, hard work is paying off, what a golden opportunity to get a more National feel to the game, and compete with other field sports for recognition, both by the media and by the public.
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Postby davidmcculloch81 Tue Oct 24, 2006 9:19 am

I played for the South at the Regionals a few years ago and although we gave it a good crack and did quite well the team was loaded with foreign imports (and Northerners). So although it was a fair reflection of the league down there I'm not sure it represented Southern development. If Lancs/Cheshire/Yorks LDOs were all still about in May then maybe their teams would look a little different, and a little silly if you ask me. Let's hope the South can one day soon put out a representative team of Southern players that can challenge.

Sorry, this is all a little off-topic but RE the Gammer thread - stop the paranoia. It's light-hearted banter. It's impossible to have any fun on here without someone getting on their high horse/sparking a North-South debate.
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Postby JGRUB5 Tue Oct 24, 2006 2:32 pm

Now it's the British Nationals - was the South 3rd last year?


i tottaly agree with dave, i played for lancs in the nationals, and i think there may have been 2 or 3 southerners playing, if that. Majority were american.
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Postby fifteen peter twenty Tue Oct 24, 2006 2:39 pm

I'm sure someone has the squad from last year and it's not as few as genuine southern residents as that... There was some talk of expanding the nationals (there was a scottish unis team there last year) it could accomodate a couple of LDO teams (north and south say) and then a South team with the same selection criteria as that used for cheshire, lancs etc.

AND, why not have an U19s tourney running at the same time (using the same format) which would give players more exposure than one day of trials.
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