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Fouling out to discourage.

Posted: Sat Mar 23, 2013 2:49 am
by Dalenator

As i am a fairly green referee I just wanted to clarify a possible tool to help control a game.

The rules state that once a player has accumulated 5 personal fouls he is fouled out of the game and must immediately leave the pitch.

now in the case where a player gives the referee abuse over a call, i would call an unsportsmanlike for 1-3 minutes depending on severity.

now I've refereed players that don't seem to get the hint. the other options are exclusion for these players (which requires a lot of paperwork) or banishment.
Though both these decisions are fairly cut and dry.

A couple troubles I find with these punishments.
-A 3 minutes penalty to getting kicked out of the game is a considerable jump.
-There is also the fact that if it is a goalie, you can't directly send them off for personals, so the message doesn't seem to get through quite as well. And if i go straight to banishing a teams goalie after a few comments, that's a massive disadvantage for a team just for what could be a slip of the tongue (not my problem, but It's a big decision)
-coupled with the fact that if a goalie repeatedly offends, the poor in home goes off for a possible 15 minutes.

So my thought was that if someone had a comment which is squarely in that grey area of frustration mixed with an insult which might be directed at me or at themselves.

What is the view of a referee award 3 1 minute personals. in a effort to speed up their removal from the game whilst not actively kicking them off.
If that doesn't work then they will be removed anyway with the awarding of two further personals.

is that inventively cruel? or a viable tool?

Re: Fouling out to discourage.

Posted: Sat Mar 23, 2013 9:01 am
by ibop
First bit I wrote was wrong..... Rule 47
47.4 The organizers of a tournament or a competition may play the
Nominated Defender Rule, if they feel it appropriate for some
or all of the games in that tournament or competition:
i) Before the commencement of the game, the Head
Coach shall nominate a starting longstick of his squad
to be the Nominated Defender.
ii) Where a goalkeeper commits a time-serving penalty,
the Nominated Defender shall serve the suspension.
The penalty shall be charged against the goalkeeper’s
iii) Rule 47.4 ii) shall not apply if the goalkeeper has
committed an expulsion foul or if the penalty causes
the goalkeeper to “foul out.”
iv) If the Nominated Defender is not on the field of play
to serve the suspension, the suspension shall be
inflicted upon another longstick defender, who was on
the field of play when the goalkeeper committed his
v) If both teams have two goalkeepers dressed, the
Nominated Defender rule will not be used. If one team
has two goalkeepers and the other has not, both teams
shall have the option of using the Nominated Defender

I'd be unlikely to give a 3 minute foul for unsportsmanlike comments, if there was enough said to be worthy of that, you could flag repeatedly as they are being abusive (which will of course raise the ire but encourage their teammates to assist you), in the same way that two slashes are 2 separate penalties rather than a penalty of twice the length.

As for comments that may be self directed, that is a grey area and you could only tell by getting far too close to the action. I tend to run games slightly differently depending on occasion, a BUCS game I'd let most words go unless it was a show game, but consider the volume and context, though I often give a warning on first hearing. Anywhere with spectators or juniors around I hold a much lower language tolerance

Re: Fouling out to discourage.

Posted: Sat Mar 23, 2013 9:10 am
by Jim13
Are you really suggesting 3 one minute personals for unsportsmanlike to help get a player off a pitch more quickly!?

Re: Fouling out to discourage.

Posted: Sat Mar 23, 2013 12:26 pm
by cjlax


Re: Fouling out to discourage.

Posted: Sat Mar 23, 2013 5:58 pm
by Dalenator
Thats exactly what i'm suggesting.

of course, if i really wanted the player off fast, he'd be banished.

But the problem is, a 3 minute should discourage, and i've seen where it hasn't so what do we do after that? banish them?
If i banish one guy for continued abuse, then if someone else does the same i have to banish them. I'm not looking to banish half a team! which is why i'm not keen on pulling it out.

but if i were to hear 3 comments from one guy in the same sentence of abuse (towards me), why shouldn't i call 3 1 mins? the player will understand he's closer to fouling out, the team will serve 3 minutes instead of 15 for one players idiocy.

it seems like a halfway punishment between them being kicked out and a personal. (though I'd only use it on insults to the ref)

Re: Fouling out to discourage.

Posted: Sat Mar 23, 2013 7:09 pm
by Jim13
I'll be polite. It's a really bad idea.

Re: Fouling out to discourage.

Posted: Sat Mar 23, 2013 7:18 pm
by whopead
I have given a minute for unsportsmanlike before and behaviour has continued so i gave a second minute. It seemed to work. Team mates usually will step in at this point. It is quite concievable though that if the player doesnt get the hint that a word with the coach/captain would help at this point. If a player insists on continuing unacceptable behaviour then why as a ref should you not coninue to throw flags?

Re: Fouling out to discourage.

Posted: Sat Mar 23, 2013 8:29 pm
by Jim13
Consecutive is one thing after a flag but simultaneous?


Re: Fouling out to discourage.

Posted: Sat Mar 23, 2013 9:29 pm
by laxambition
I was once involved in the fouling out of a player in the space of about 30 seconds, and that was at Bluesfest (you know, the fun tournament)

Flagged for a slash; flagged for the back chat; flagged for the comment following the second flag; then the CBO flagged him for what he said about the ref (me) as he hit the bench; then CBO flagged him again for what he said in response to the fourth flag.

Some players just don't know when to wind it in!

Re: Fouling out to discourage.

Posted: Sun Mar 24, 2013 2:58 am
by Dalenator
Thankyou, you pretty much answered my question. and cleared the snaffoo in my head.

I'll be polite. It's a really bad idea.

How would you deal with a player hurling abuse at you multiple times even after awarding an unsortsmanlike?

Re: Fouling out to discourage.

Posted: Sun Mar 24, 2013 11:03 am
by Moaning Git
Talk to the Captains, tell them that you are not going to put up with abuse like that. If they cannot calm their players down then banish or expel as necessary. Most time you can calm things down, sometimes you can't.

I do not think twisting the rules to suit is a good idea although.

I was once confronted by a very irate play who I flagged for a slash who got right in my face ranting and raving for which he got another flag, I walked away, he followed me, then he decided to tell me F*ck off, you F*cking fat c*nt, for which I gave him 3 more single flags, fouling him out of the game. However I made each of them one minute because his team were trying to calm him down, but he was just not having any! At the time it seemed the right thing to do, afterwards I realised that as he was being the aggressor I should have expelled him instead.

In my mind if one player goes psycho it is no reason to punish the whole team.

Re: Fouling out to discourage.

Posted: Sun Mar 24, 2013 12:36 pm
by Jim13
Absolutely; good man management is needed.

The best refs interact well with the teams and garner respect through clear authority rather than being too flag happy.

I'll admit I've never reffed but if someone's acting like a tool they're easier to get on side with the help of their teammates, captain and coaching staff.

I'm sure that as you gain experience you learn how to prevent these situations before they even arise.

Good luck and keep at it; experience doesn't come overnight!