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Hidden Ball trick

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Moaning Git
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Re: Hidden Ball trick

Postby Moaning Git Thu Mar 28, 2013 6:30 pm

Exactly, I will set them up and you deliver the punchlines!

As for flag happy... no I weep tears of sadness everytime I am forced to wave a yellow duster as some poor demented soul perverts the holy writ of the FIL/ELA rulebook! Honestly.... ask anyone.
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dalglish
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Re: Hidden Ball trick

Postby dalglish Thu Mar 28, 2013 7:25 pm

MG, Handbags, sticks whatever, same outcome :lol:
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davidmcculloch81
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Re: Hidden Ball trick

Postby davidmcculloch81 Mon Apr 01, 2013 9:36 pm

Can MAD and MG please get together and decide what is the correct and consistent call and post back here please so I know whether I am allowed to play the decoy man?


Thanks
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Moaning Git
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Re: Hidden Ball trick

Postby Moaning Git Tue Apr 02, 2013 1:00 am

Can't you read?
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Chilli
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Re: Hidden Ball trick

Postby Chilli Tue Apr 02, 2013 9:48 am

OK, I'll have a crack and see if it makes sense.
If, as a result of a deliberate deception play, a defender checks or bodies the decoy player then, as long as what the defender does is within the established rules, then he cannot be guilty of an offence when the ball is subsequently revealed to be in another player's stick.
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Moaning Git
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Re: Hidden Ball trick

Postby Moaning Git Tue Apr 02, 2013 6:35 pm

Brilliant!
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MAD
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Re: Hidden Ball trick

Postby MAD Tue Apr 02, 2013 7:38 pm

So based on what Chilli says,the defender would be guilty of a foul upon the decoy player as the ball would be in the possession of another.
You can check or body a player who is in possession, or within 3 yards of a loose ball or ball in flight.

41.1 Body checking and taking-out an opponent are permitted in the game of lacrosse, provided:
i) the opponent is in possession of the ball or is within 9 feet (2.74 meters) of a loose ball or is within 9 feet (2.74 meters) of a ball in flight;
ii) the contact is made from the front or side, not below the hip, and below the neck.
A body-check is the placing of the body in the way of and facing an opponent so that the latter is simply impeded.
A take-out is the hitting of an opponent with the shoulder.

41.2 A player may use a shoulder-to-shoulder charge against an opponent with whom he is engaged or is about to be engaged in a ground scuffle, provided that the opponent is within 9 feet (2.74 meters) of a loose ball.

42.1 A player may check an opponent's crosse with his own crosse, provided that the opponent has possession of the ball, the opponent is within 9 feet (2.74 meters) of a loose ball, or the ball is in flight within 9 feet (2.74 meters) of the opponent. For the purpose of this Rule, the gloved hand holding the crosse is considered as part of the crosse.
See Rules 71 and 72 concerning illegal checking.

So you see the player doing the checking would be breaking the rules and as such a penalty should be given
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MAD
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Re: Hidden Ball trick

Postby MAD Tue Apr 02, 2013 7:51 pm

my only concession is,
i would probably call a technical foul of interference and not a personal foul, as 1/2/3 minute would be a harsh call for a regular check. which,if he had the ball in his possession, would not even be a penalty.
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jameskellam
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Re: Hidden Ball trick

Postby jameskellam Wed Apr 03, 2013 7:26 am

Checking an empty stick is a technical foul. Slashing is the personal. The technical foul by the defender would be simultaneous with a moving pick by the decoy. You could whistle them both, send them both off and restart play with an attack ball (thereby scuttling the hidden ball trick) or you could let them play. I'd let them play.
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Chilli
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Re: Hidden Ball trick

Postby Chilli Wed Apr 03, 2013 8:33 am

MAD, please re-read what I wrote, I said that the defender would not be guilty of an offence on the decoy player, unless what he did would have broken the normal rules of contact.
Fortunately such deception plays are rare but common sense says that you couldn't have the situation where a goal was scored and then the defender/s who had checked/bodied the decoy player were then retrospectively penalised for interference on the non-ball carrier.
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davidmcculloch81
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Re: Hidden Ball trick

Postby davidmcculloch81 Wed Apr 03, 2013 8:42 am

jameskellam wrote:Checking an empty stick is a technical foul. Slashing is the personal. The technical foul by the defender would be simultaneous with a moving pick by the decoy. You could whistle them both, send them both off and restart play with an attack ball (thereby scuttling the hidden ball trick) or you could let them play. I'd let them play.


I think you have misunderstood the role of the decoy. Calling the decoy for a moving pick is clearly rubbish, unless you have seen a different hidden ball trick to me. The decoy is just running around cradling an empty stick. They are not trying to obstruct anyone.

And Mr Git, thanks for your pithy response, but it looks like I can read after all. You and Mr D seem to be at odds about what to do. For what it's worth, I agree with MAD. If the defender plays the man who doesn't have the ball then it's the defender at fault for being stupid. Send him off.
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jameskellam
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Re: Hidden Ball trick

Postby jameskellam Wed Apr 03, 2013 9:20 am

Point taken but think about it. The hidden ball trick is working, a player who does have the ball is advancing unmarked on goal and a defender checks an empty stick. You throw a bloody great flag in the air, shout "flag down" (and possibly "checking an empty stick") and effectively knacker a completely legal goal scoring opportunity by telling the defence that the ball isn't where they thought it was. They'll be delighted when you send the defender off for thirty seconds and restart play having told the goalie exactly who has the ball.
Last edited by jameskellam on Wed Apr 03, 2013 7:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Mr.Stanford
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Re: Hidden Ball trick

Postby Mr.Stanford Wed Apr 03, 2013 9:41 am

maybe all players should sign a waiver document prior to attempting any hidden ball tricks...

"by initiating a hidden ball trick you surrender any rights to claim a penalty should your decoy runner be checked in the process of the decoy. This includes having the f**k whacked out of them as long as it's controlled and necessary, unless playing with a referee from stockport."
Hitchin

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the pom
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Re: Hidden Ball trick

Postby the pom Wed Apr 03, 2013 10:05 am

we can agree that it is random what will be called by diffrent refs.
League restructure I told you so 10/3/2011(looking good on this one)
Prem division to two leagues will result in the prem division failing and being combined with Nemla 22/3/2012
the proposed restructure to 8 teams in each prem league will only last a couple of years until it has to be restructured again due to teams dropping out. 13/12/2012
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Moaning Git
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Re: Hidden Ball trick

Postby Moaning Git Wed Apr 03, 2013 12:05 pm

The difference is that MAD is an international and panel ref, and a refs trainer and as such is caught up in that web of intrigue that emerges from World games scenarios and leads to FIL attemps to develop rules that cover every scenario which is impossible. He has no choice but to fall back on the strict wording of the rules.

Me though, I am a jobbing ref who fell into the role as a help for my junior team and went on from there. I try and keep up with the rules, and the interpretations that seem to keep changing on certain points, but on the whole I am guided by what I believe to be the spirit of the game and the advice I was given while doing my training course, its not what you call that makes the difference between a good and a poor ref, its what you don't!

In this case if a player makes the decision to act as decoy and is successful I will mentally praise his cleverness, and if he is anything like a man he will endure the checks with a smile on his face and a chuckle at the bemused defender. If he starts to whinge and moan like a whipped cur simply because the defender is doing his job then no way will I call the "foul". Unless of course the defender is "Whacking f*ck" out of the other player, a move which although not described in detail sounds more like attempted assault rather than throwing a controlled check!

Technically MAD's comment is correct to the letter of the rules as I think i pointed out, but is it in the spirit of the game, I would say emphatically no! However I am sure that an international assessor would up his percentage for calling it. If it was spotted, unlike Bomberry's effort at the U19s Worlds. Personally I would rather gain the respect of players for my work than points from a refs assessor.Damn looks like I will never be selected to run in the World Games ...... oh well pass me another beer!
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the pom
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Re: Hidden Ball trick

Postby the pom Wed Apr 03, 2013 12:54 pm

sorry Mr git it my comment was not meant as a criticism of you

and I believe your view may be the correct view(common sense) if not the technically correct view.
think of the situation you do a hidden ball play to target having s specific player sent off from the opposing team just by the decoy driving on them each check would be a foul it would be easy to have a player out of a game in one move.

Similar we had a game recently The ball is lose next to our crease one of our defenders does a legal take out we get the ball and start to clear it is then pointed out that the opposing player that had been taken out was lying upside down in our crease.
Technically he is the crease but the ref ignored the call as it would have been unfair as the player 1 had not intended to go in the crease 2 did not know he was in the crease 3 probably did not know what day it was

a good example of common sense calls over the technically correct call
League restructure I told you so 10/3/2011(looking good on this one)
Prem division to two leagues will result in the prem division failing and being combined with Nemla 22/3/2012
the proposed restructure to 8 teams in each prem league will only last a couple of years until it has to be restructured again due to teams dropping out. 13/12/2012
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Moaning Git
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Re: Hidden Ball trick

Postby Moaning Git Wed Apr 03, 2013 3:20 pm

No offence was taken, I was responding generally, not specifically to your comment, but thanks anyway!

Re the crease issue, I have not got them to hand but think the situation is covered in the rules and would be a "get out of the crease" call. In which the offending player would get out of the crease asap.
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jameskellam
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Re: Hidden Ball trick

Postby jameskellam Wed Apr 03, 2013 7:06 pm

Git's right, again. The man in the crease committed the foul when the ball was loose. The attacking side then won possession of the ball. Had it been spotted in time it would have been a play on which would have ended when the attack picked up the ball. Incidentally, if a man is lying "upside down" in the crease, I'd want to be sure I shouldn't be blowing for injury.
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MAD
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Re: Hidden Ball trick

Postby MAD Wed Apr 03, 2013 8:08 pm

Chilli i agree with you.
i was just pointing out that the rules would be broken as the checked player would not be in possession or within 3 yds of a loose ball

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