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Crease Violation & Goalie Interference

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Crease Violation & Goalie Interference

Postby Phil Thu Oct 18, 2012 3:28 pm

Trying to work out what to call on the below:

1) Blue has the ball in his possession and enters the crease.

Crease violation: change of possession, no send off?

2) Blue #1 has the ball in his possession, blue #2 enters the crease.

Same call.

3) Red keeper has the ball. Blue enters the crease but does not touch the goalie, his stick or the goal.

Crease violation: red send off, 30 second technical?

4) Red keeper has the ball in his possession in the crease. Blue poke checks the keeper from outside the crease.

Interference: red send off, 30 second technical?

5) Ball is in red crease, but not in the red keepers possession. Blue, whilst trying to 'fish' the ball out from outside the crease, makes contact with the keeper or his stick.

Interference: ball goes blue, no send off?

-----

Also for 3 & 4 would you flag or blow? I want to say flaaaag?!

-----

If people could tell me if they are the right things to do, and correct me where needed, that would be really appreciated. Following on from that, in instances where the ball is awarded to, or stays with, red am I right in thinking that the goalie couldn't restart the ball with the ball in his crease? Goalie (or another player) would need to start with the ball on the GLE 20(?) yards away from the goal?

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Re: Crease Violation & Goalie Interference

Postby young_trig Thu Oct 18, 2012 3:51 pm

Phil wrote:Trying to work out what to call on the below:

1) Blue has the ball in his possession and enters the crease.

Crease violation: change of possession, no send off?


Correct.
Balls restarts 20 yards GLE

Phil wrote:2) Blue #1 has the ball in his possession, blue #2 enters the crease.

Same call.


Correct
I think the ball restarts from 20 Yards GLE (but could be where the ball was at time of infringment)

Phil wrote:3) Red keeper has the ball. Blue enters the crease but does not touch the goalie, his stick or the goal.

Crease violation: red send off, 30 second technical?


Flag thrown for a technical offense (possibly cancelled by future goal).
If ball wasn't cleared then ball starts at half-way with a free clear.


Phil wrote:4) Red keeper has the ball in his possession in the crease. Blue poke checks the keeper from outside the crease.

Interference: red send off, 30 second technical?

Same as above

Phil wrote:5) Ball is in red crease, but not in the red keepers possession. Blue, whilst trying to 'fish' the ball out from outside the crease, makes contact with the keeper or his stick.

Interference: ball goes blue, no send off?


Contact with goalkeeper is ok when the ball is not in posession of the keeper.
Play on
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Re: Crease Violation & Goalie Interference

Postby UKLacrosse Thu Oct 18, 2012 4:17 pm

young_trig wrote:
Phil wrote:5) Ball is in red crease, but not in the red keepers possession. Blue, whilst trying to 'fish' the ball out from outside the crease, makes contact with the keeper or his stick.

Interference: ball goes blue, no send off?


Contact with goalkeeper is ok when the ball is not in posession of the keeper.
Play on


That's an interesting one ... we had a long discussion (never answered) some time ago, where the goalie draws the ball back into the crease, and then seeks to pick up the ball. The referee starts the count once the ball is in the crease and under the goalie's control ... but not actually in the stick. An opposing player seeks to get the ball, but surely if the count has started, then the goalie must be deemed in possession and therefore protected?
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Re: Crease Violation & Goalie Interference

Postby young_trig Thu Oct 18, 2012 4:23 pm

UKLacrosse wrote:
young_trig wrote:
Phil wrote:5) Ball is in red crease, but not in the red keepers possession. Blue, whilst trying to 'fish' the ball out from outside the crease, makes contact with the keeper or his stick.

Interference: ball goes blue, no send off?


Contact with goalkeeper is ok when the ball is not in posession of the keeper.
Play on


That's an interesting one ... we had a long discussion (never answered) some time ago, where the goalie draws the ball back into the crease, and then seeks to pick up the ball. The referee starts the count once the ball is in the crease and under the goalie's control ... but not actually in the stick. An opposing player seeks to get the ball, but surely if the count has started, then the goalie must be deemed in possession and therefore protected?


Your point is not relevant here I'm afraid. In the definition of the question it is deemed that the goalkeeper is NOT in possession. therefore its is legal to challenge for the ball. The raking back to scoop debate is whole different kettle of fish.
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Re: Crease Violation & Goalie Interference

Postby MAD Thu Oct 18, 2012 5:21 pm

young_trig wrote:
UKLacrosse wrote:
young_trig wrote:
Phil wrote:5) Ball is in red crease, but not in the red keepers possession. Blue, whilst trying to 'fish' the ball out from outside the crease, makes contact with the keeper or his stick.

Interference: ball goes blue, no send off?


Contact with goalkeeper is ok when the ball is not in posession of the keeper.
Play on


That's an interesting one ... we had a long discussion (never answered) some time ago, where the goalie draws the ball back into the crease, and then seeks to pick up the ball. The referee starts the count once the ball is in the crease and under the goalie's control ... but not actually in the stick. An opposing player seeks to get the ball, but surely if the count has started, then the goalie must be deemed in possession and therefore protected?



Your point is not relevant here I'm afraid. In the definition of the question it is deemed that the goalkeeper is NOT in possession. therefore its is legal to challenge for the ball. The raking back to scoop debate is whole different kettle of fish.


Trig fair comment on raking back

But a little clarification on contact with the Keeper.
i think a statement that contact with the keeper is ok could be misinterpreted.
i can see why the play on (loose ball technical) but would think giving possesion in this case would probably be the fairer call.

Rule 48.1.ii applies
No opposing player MAY INITIATE CONTACT with the GOALKEEPER or his CROSSE whilst he is inside the crease. When inside he will have its full protection. This is regardless of whether or not he is in full possesion Or sudo possesion (ball clamped inside the crease) Rule 48.1.ii applies

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Re: Crease Violation & Goalie Interference

Postby Phil Thu Oct 18, 2012 5:33 pm

young_trig wrote:
Phil wrote:
Crease violation: red send off, 30 second technical?


Flag thrown for a technical offense (possibly cancelled by future goal).
If ball wasn't cleared then ball starts at half-way with a free clear.


Ok, so I guess you'd have to make the free clear call pretty quickly on that one? Would you:

Throw the flag for the crease violation then blow the whistle for the to inform the red team of the free clear? Flag would still be down, and blue player on the pitch, as the ball hasn't yet touched the floor and red haven't yet lost their attacking chance? ... or something completely different?

If you gave the free clear and red then lost their attacking chance, blue then gets the 30 second technical.. where would you then restart the game, from where the ball touched the ground?

... I can see this thread raising a lot of questions and probably have quite a few non crease/interference ones too so will apologise now for that.
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Re: Crease Violation & Goalie Interference

Postby whopead Thu Oct 18, 2012 8:13 pm

Are you bringing this up as i got the call wrong on sunday? I think in that situation i should have given a 30 second technical for interference!
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Re: Crease Violation & Goalie Interference

Postby laxambition Thu Oct 18, 2012 8:49 pm

MAD wrote:
young_trig wrote:
UKLacrosse wrote:
young_trig wrote:
Phil wrote:5) Ball is in red crease, but not in the red keepers possession. Blue, whilst trying to 'fish' the ball out from outside the crease, makes contact with the keeper or his stick.

Interference: ball goes blue, no send off?


Contact with goalkeeper is ok when the ball is not in posession of the keeper.
Play on


That's an interesting one ... we had a long discussion (never answered) some time ago, where the goalie draws the ball back into the crease, and then seeks to pick up the ball. The referee starts the count once the ball is in the crease and under the goalie's control ... but not actually in the stick. An opposing player seeks to get the ball, but surely if the count has started, then the goalie must be deemed in possession and therefore protected?



Your point is not relevant here I'm afraid. In the definition of the question it is deemed that the goalkeeper is NOT in possession. therefore its is legal to challenge for the ball. The raking back to scoop debate is whole different kettle of fish.


Trig fair comment on raking back

But a little clarification on contact with the Keeper.
i think a statement that contact with the keeper is ok could be misinterpreted.
i can see why the play on (loose ball technical) but would think giving possesion in this case would probably be the fairer call.

Rule 48.1.ii applies
No opposing player MAY INITIATE CONTACT with the GOALKEEPER or his CROSSE whilst he is inside the crease. When inside he will have its full protection. This is regardless of whether or not he is in full possesion Or sudo possesion (ball clamped inside the crease) Rule 48.1.ii applies

Mad


If contact is made inside the "cylinder" of the goal crease (which is how I interpret the initial question) then it is loose ball interference, no send off, possession to the keeper's team

If the goalkeeper is stood in the crease but his crosse is held outside of the "cylinder" (but crucially NOT in possession of the ball) then the keeper's crosse may be legally checked if within 3 yards of the loose ball
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Re: Crease Violation & Goalie Interference

Postby young_trig Fri Oct 19, 2012 9:11 am

Phil wrote:
young_trig wrote:
Phil wrote:
Crease violation: red send off, 30 second technical?


Flag thrown for a technical offense (possibly cancelled by future goal).
If ball wasn't cleared then ball starts at half-way with a free clear.


Ok, so I guess you'd have to make the free clear call pretty quickly on that one? Would you:

Throw the flag for the crease violation then blow the whistle for the to inform the red team of the free clear? Flag would still be down, and blue player on the pitch, as the ball hasn't yet touched the floor and red haven't yet lost their attacking chance? ... or something completely different?

If you gave the free clear and red then lost their attacking chance, blue then gets the 30 second technical.. where would you then restart the game, from where the ball touched the ground?

... I can see this thread raising a lot of questions and probably have quite a few non crease/interference ones too so will apologise now for that.


Throw the flag and wait for the play to come to an end, just like any other time a flag is thrown. Only when the whistle is eventaully blown do you look at the options (i.e. was the ball cleared etc). Its only a free clear if after the whistle was blown the team have failed to reach the half-way.
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Re: Crease Violation & Goalie Interference

Postby Phil Fri Oct 19, 2012 11:32 am

young_trig wrote:
Phil wrote:
young_trig wrote:
Phil wrote:
Crease violation: red send off, 30 second technical?


Flag thrown for a technical offense (possibly cancelled by future goal).
If ball wasn't cleared then ball starts at half-way with a free clear.


Ok, so I guess you'd have to make the free clear call pretty quickly on that one? Would you:

Throw the flag for the crease violation then blow the whistle for the to inform the red team of the free clear? Flag would still be down, and blue player on the pitch, as the ball hasn't yet touched the floor and red haven't yet lost their attacking chance? ... or something completely different?

If you gave the free clear and red then lost their attacking chance, blue then gets the 30 second technical.. where would you then restart the game, from where the ball touched the ground?

... I can see this thread raising a lot of questions and probably have quite a few non crease/interference ones too so will apologise now for that.


Throw the flag and wait for the play to come to an end, just like any other time a flag is thrown. Only when the whistle is eventaully blown do you look at the options (i.e. was the ball cleared etc). Its only a free clear if after the whistle was blown the team have failed to reach the half-way.


Ah, ok I get you. So options for out comes would be either:

1) Flag, ball is cleared and goal is scored. Penalty cancelled.
2) Flag, ball is cleared, play comes to an end, red send of 30 second technical.
3) Flag, ball is not cleared, play come to an end, red send of 30 second technical, free clear.

whopead wrote:Are you bringing this up as i got the call wrong on sunday? I think in that situation i should have given a 30 second technical for interference!


Ha no, absolutely not. I'm brining it up as I don't know the answers and it came up in a BUCS game on Wednesday. I'd like to know what to do for as and when I have to call it. Was tough for the ref on Wednesday as there was only one referee. Some some things were missed - which is fine, there always will be, but some things should have been known and weren't. CBO had a pretty bad day at the office too IMO..

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Re: Crease Violation & Goalie Interference

Postby dblacklock Fri Oct 19, 2012 4:38 pm

Phil wrote:
Phil

Ha no, absolutely not. I'm brining it up as I don't know the answers and it came up in a BUCS game on Wednesday. I'd like to know what to do for as and when I have to call it. Was tough for the ref on Wednesday as there was only one referee. Some some things were missed - which is fine, there always will be, but some things should have been known and weren't. CBO had a pretty bad day at the office too IMO..

Phil[/quote]

Therein lies the problem - one eferee. Why not try two referees and no CBO? Was that an opton? Trail covers offsides and subs on the way up.
One guy trying to manage a game and know everything? Hmmmmm, not sure any international officials would even be that capable. I thik we might be expecting a lot from one guy.
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Re: Crease Violation & Goalie Interference

Postby Phil Fri Oct 19, 2012 5:55 pm

dblacklock wrote:One guy trying to manage a game and know everything? Hmmmmm, not sure any international officials would even be that capable. I thik we might be expecting a lot from one guy.


At no point in a game do I expect a referee (especially on his own) to either see everything or call it all correctly and I include myself in that. Just look at my above questions, it's clear I don't know know the rules which is why I'm here asking now. I was just trying to explain where the questions had arisen from.

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Re: Crease Violation & Goalie Interference

Postby dblacklock Sun Oct 21, 2012 10:55 am

Phil, not being critical of you asking the questions at all. In fact very pleased that there are some questions being posed in the Rules Forum. My question back to you was, "why only one referee"? As I have stated one referee cannot see everything and you pointed out you do not have this level expecation (very realistic), however there are others out there that feel that we should see all and call all.

I thought that in all leagues now, both teams had to supply a referee and therefore was surprised that there was only one referee on the game that you were speaking of. To reiterate, in my opinnion (for what it's worth), a game should never go forward with less than two qualified referees. The game cannot be effectively officated with only one referee. My second question was, had anybody considered using two referees rather than one referee and one CBO?

I'm happy that you have asked the questions you have and even happier that there is a contingent of qualified people who have weighed in with the correct answers. Keep asking question as that is how we all improve (players and officaials alike).

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Re: Crease Violation & Goalie Interference

Postby Moaning Git Sun Oct 21, 2012 11:58 am

Don is right, I have come to the conclusion that for a game to be effectively refereed that there must be two refs on the field. So far this season I have been asked three times to ref a senior league game on my own, and I have simply refused. It is not fair on the players or on me.

Yesterday, I was forced to ref a U16s game on my own, or see the match cancelled, because Juniors and Schools have not bitten the bullet and insisted on two refs for Junior games..... a decision that I think is shortsighted and frankly dangerous. There is no way that a fat guy with a torn groin muscle pushing 60 years of age could ref 20 teenagers fuelled by testosterone by himself. I persuaded a parent to watch one goal and back line for me, so I had a chance to get back after a fast break, but there were loads of infringments I must have missed because I was out of position or blind sighted.

I have heard all the arguments at players forums and in bars about whether the game needs refs, and how insisting on two officials is killing the game. Nonsense, and a totally selfish attitude.Any club that expects a ref to cover a game by themselves is being completely unfair on that individual. Imagine playing a match with 5 players against ten, you would be totally overwhelmed, and that is exactly what you are asking a single ref to do. That or you are accepting that your game is in effect not being refereed at all, and that you have ticked a box by having someone carrying a whistle stood in the middle of the pitch, and I believe that is no longer acceptable or in anyway desirable.

That said, I think there is a big question to be discussed about how best to use the resource of the panel refs in League North. Yes for the big, tough games it is advisable to have an experienced and fully trained head ref, and this will usually mean three man crew, which is good practice for everyone involved. However I thing that the next priority should be for panel refs to be onfield mentoring club refs, building their skills and confidence, not with formal assessments, but by passing on their practical experience.
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Re: Crease Violation & Goalie Interference

Postby whopead Sun Oct 21, 2012 5:36 pm

We have been lucky in the last 2 weeks to have 3 man crew at our games. Last Weeks Nottingham Vs Hull Adam Sherlock did a good job with 2 inexperienced Nottingham Home refs. He coached and mentored the 2 refs whilst being Head referee.

This Saturday Nottingham took 2 referees to Lincoln. Paul Chatterton was from the panel. Bob Mc Ewen a level 2 and Nottingham home ref and also again another inexperienced student ref from Nottingham. Again coaching and support was available for the inexperienced ref.

If we could get this level of refereeing every week it would be great. Unfortunatley the 2 student referees were only available due to injury not allowing them to play.
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Re: Crease Violation & Goalie Interference

Postby jsgi Tue Oct 23, 2012 10:03 am

MAD wrote:
young_trig wrote:
UKLacrosse wrote:
young_trig wrote:
Phil wrote:5) Ball is in red crease, but not in the red keepers possession. Blue, whilst trying to 'fish' the ball out from outside the crease, makes contact with the keeper or his stick.

Interference: ball goes blue, no send off?


Contact with goalkeeper is ok when the ball is not in posession of the keeper.
Play on


That's an interesting one ... we had a long discussion (never answered) some time ago, where the goalie draws the ball back into the crease, and then seeks to pick up the ball. The referee starts the count once the ball is in the crease and under the goalie's control ... but not actually in the stick. An opposing player seeks to get the ball, but surely if the count has started, then the goalie must be deemed in possession and therefore protected?



Your point is not relevant here I'm afraid. In the definition of the question it is deemed that the goalkeeper is NOT in possession. therefore its is legal to challenge for the ball. The raking back to scoop debate is whole different kettle of fish.


Trig fair comment on raking back

But a little clarification on contact with the Keeper.
i think a statement that contact with the keeper is ok could be misinterpreted.
i can see why the play on (loose ball technical) but would think giving possesion in this case would probably be the fairer call.

Rule 48.1.ii applies
No opposing player MAY INITIATE CONTACT with the GOALKEEPER or his CROSSE whilst he is inside the crease. When inside he will have its full protection. This is regardless of whether or not he is in full possesion Or sudo possesion (ball clamped inside the crease) Rule 48.1.ii applies

Mad


The keeper is deemed to be in possession of the ball when it is clamped inside the crease. If a an attacker makes contact with the stick then a flag should be thrown for a technical interference foul.

In an ideal world the possession count on the keeper should start as soon as he has it clamped in the crease.

In reality in the UK especially in mid winter the referees tend to give some leeway with when the count starts, (I know I have spent more than 4 seconds trying to dig the ball out of the mud in the past).

So advice for Keepers out there...if an attacker puts his stick in a position where it is difficult to rake the ball back or lift up to scoop the ball. Just make sure that you initiate contact of your stick on his stick and the referee should throw a flag, that should stop him doing it in the future.
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Re: Crease Violation & Goalie Interference

Postby laxambition Tue Oct 23, 2012 1:49 pm

jsgi wrote:So advice for Keepers out there...if an attacker puts his stick in a position where it is difficult to rake the ball back or lift up to scoop the ball. Just make sure that you initiate contact of your stick on his stick and the referee should throw a flag, that should stop him doing it in the future.


whoa!

Rule 48.1 ii) as quoted above by MAD, but repeated here for reference:

No opposing player may initiate contact with the goalkeeper or his crosse while the goalkeeper is within the goal crease area whether the goalkeeper has the ball in his possession or not. An attacking player may reach into the goal crease area to play a loose ball, so long as he does not initiate contact with the goalkeeper.


So if an attacker puts his crosse in a position where it is difficult to rake the ball back or lift up to scoop the ball then by all means initiate contact with his crosse whilst raking back/ stick check his crosse away/ whatever, but do not expect the referee to throw a flag as there is only a foul if the contact is initiated by the attacker.

If the referee does throw a flag, expect him to receive a bit of questioning after the game should Messrs Lester and Parker (or others) be in attendance!

Maybe what you are getting at is that in initiating the contact yourself, then you might tempt the attacker into having a little go back, in which case you can then expect a flag so long as you were in possession of the ball throughout (i.e. didn't lift your crosse off the ball in order to stick-check the opposition's crosse away - which might turn it into a loose ball interference call rather than interference in possession).
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Re: Crease Violation & Goalie Interference

Postby young_trig Tue Oct 23, 2012 1:57 pm

laxambition wrote:
jsgi wrote:So advice for Keepers out there...if an attacker puts his stick in a position where it is difficult to rake the ball back or lift up to scoop the ball. Just make sure that you initiate contact of your stick on his stick and the referee should throw a flag, that should stop him doing it in the future.


whoa!

Rule 48.1 ii) as quoted above by MAD, but repeated here for reference:

No opposing player may initiate contact with the goalkeeper or his crosse while the goalkeeper is within the goal crease area whether the goalkeeper has the ball in his possession or not. An attacking player may reach into the goal crease area to play a loose ball, so long as he does not initiate contact with the goalkeeper.


So if an attacker puts his crosse in a position where it is difficult to rake the ball back or lift up to scoop the ball then by all means initiate contact with his crosse whilst raking back/ stick check his crosse away/ whatever, but do not expect the referee to throw a flag as there is only a foul if the contact is initiated by the attacker.

If the referee does throw a flag, expect him to receive a bit of questioning after the game should Messrs Lester and Parker (or others) be in attendance!

Maybe what you are getting at is that in initiating the contact yourself, then you might tempt the attacker into having a little go back, in which case you can then expect a flag so long as you were in possession of the ball throughout (i.e. didn't lift your crosse off the ball in order to stick-check the opposition's crosse away - which might turn it into a loose ball interference call rather than interference in possession).



I would say that by holding his stick in a place as to make it difficult for the goalkeeper he is in fact inviting the goalkeeper to make contact and therefore guilty of initiaitng contact.

Just like attackers that hold up there sticks on the edge of the crease, they're doing it in a place that makes it very difficult for the goalkeeper to clear without making contact and therefore I feel could be interpreted as initiating contact.
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Re: Crease Violation & Goalie Interference

Postby laxambition Tue Oct 23, 2012 2:52 pm

young_trig wrote:I would say that by holding his stick in a place as to make it difficult for the goalkeeper he is in fact inviting the goalkeeper to make contact and therefore guilty of initiating contact.

Just like attackers that hold up there sticks on the edge of the crease, they're doing it in a place that makes it very difficult for the goalkeeper to clear without making contact and therefore I feel could be interpreted as initiating contact.



Having thought about this a bit more I think you (and Gregg) are right! I'd forgotten about AR48.3 and its implications

I think the rule is stupid and badly worded (but that's my opinion), but it's the rule, and we have to apply the rules as they are.

The clincher is in AR48.3

AR48.3 The Blue goalkeeper, with his feet in the crease, is clearing the ball. A Red attacker is holding his crosse motionless outside the cylinder in a covering position. Before the ball is released by the Blue goalkeeper, the crosses collide.
RULING Technical foul, as the goalkeeper has the protection of the crease when clearing, whether the attacker moves his crosse or not.


I don't think holding your stick stationary and having it hit by someone who has nearly 24 square metres of real estate to work in constitutes "initiating contact". The rule and the AR effectively make the crease a no-go area, (not to mention the extension of the crease by the size of the goalkeeper's stride plus the length of their reach). It's one thing to prevent "harm" to the keeper by preventing body contact, but quite a leap to effectively prevent "just being near them".

Can you tell that many of the rule-makers in lacrosse used to be goalies?
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Re: Crease Violation & Goalie Interference

Postby jsgi Wed Oct 24, 2012 9:57 am

I would agree that the stationary outside the crease is a bit harsh Also difficult to referee as it is difficult to determine the point when the ball leaves the crosse. However if the attacker has his crosse inside the cylinder then he is fair game when I'm refereeing.

In fact if I was modifying the laws (which I'm not) I would make the act of putting his cross in the way of a keeper trying to rake the ball an offence even if contact was not made...but then again I was a goalkeeper ;-)
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