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Cross Checks, Abuse, Slashes & Trips

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whopead
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Re: Cross Checks, Abuse, Slashes & Trips

Postby whopead Sat Mar 31, 2012 1:35 pm

I have to agree with some of the above. I have personally only reffed BUCS games where in theory the players (students) are reasonably intelligent! I always warn players before the game that fould language directed toward myself or another player will not be tollerated as after maybe one or 2 flags some of the nicer chaps on the team seem to get this and ensure as a team that it stops. Whether this is because in the main the lads i am reffing for are less experienced so take my calls or whether it is the student game i dont know. I feel reasonably comfortable reffing at this level however i am not sure i would be so comfortable reffing more experienced or less "intelligent" players who disagree regularly with referees calls on saturday afternoons.
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Moaning Git
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Re: Cross Checks, Abuse, Slashes & Trips

Postby Moaning Git Sat Mar 31, 2012 3:19 pm

I am not sure that less intelligent is the right phrase, in some cases arrogant, up themselves etc may apply. With others it is a deliberate attempt to intimidate and influence as ref which is tricky especially for a less experienced ref. Equally tricky is the player who influences by being polite and supportive but slips in comments such as watch 26 off the ball or the faceman is going early.

One of the main sources of problems I think is when coaches undermine the refs authority as their attitude influences the playes's attitude. Overall though I think the situation is getting better but when it goes off it is big style.
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dblacklock
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Re: Cross Checks, Abuse, Slashes & Trips

Postby dblacklock Sat Mar 31, 2012 10:50 pm

Agree with Moaning Git's assessment. The big problem is that players, coaches, some referees,and fans do not know the rules. As John points out, the goalie in this situation did not know that trapping the ball in the crease which includes the crease line is deemed goalie possession. How the hell can a goalie not know this. Can you imagine your doctor not knowing the fundamentals of their job.

Informed participants adds to the overall experience. If we all know the rules, then the discussion will then centre around the correct interpretation or application.

My question is why everyone feels they have the god given right to openly question referees. It is not a right!! We don't ever comment on players or coaches competence or lack thereof. Can you imagine me shouting across the pitch "what an awful shot that was, or coach you why didn't you call that stick check?" I think all the stakeholders need to understand is that it is my job to make the calls, not convince you I am right. As a referee if I was in the right position and I applied the correct ruling then no criticism is warranted. Simple as that. Can you imagine Howard Webb saying to Sky, Fergie should have substiuted earlier. There would be outrage. But it is accepted that Fergie can go on TV and question referee decisions. I've been doing this a long time and accept that we will never agree on all calls, but if 50% or more are happy then on the balance of things I'm doing okay.
Don Blacklock
I'll referee the perfect game
only when you play the perfect game.
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dblacklock
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Re: Cross Checks, Abuse, Slashes & Trips

Postby dblacklock Sat Mar 31, 2012 10:57 pm

Ice pick checks are legal, but they better land on stick or glove. Not done properly really dangerous. Problem is most players do not have the skill to use this check. Indoor lacrosse have made this check illegal, but I would not advocate we take this out of the field game. Just penalise until the unskilled players stop doing it.

UKLaxfan wrote:One handed checks....

How about multiple ice-pick checks with a short pole from behind & over the head, so you are repeatedly hitting the ball carrier in the chest and shoulders with the butt end until eventually you use a stabbing motion with the butt end because you haven't dislodged the ball yet? :?:

Legal or Illegal?


:idea: Perhaps it depends on the level of play and who is playing?

Controlled vs Uncontrolled


:idea: Perhaps it is inversely proportional to how much abuse the player/team mates & Coaches of the penalised team with give you :oops: :oops:

i.e. - lots of verbal abuse & intimidation = No Flag!
take the Penalty quietly and get off the field = Flag!

The was a study of Human Behaviour in Organisations that was based on R+ / R- which are either Positive Reinforcemant (R+) or Negative Reinforcement (R-). the results over thousands of tests was that the most effective method of altering a persons (or animals) behaviour is

PIC/NIC:
Positive
Instant
Certain
&
Negative
Instant
Certain

The paradigm for the theorem was based on every behaviour is learned over time
ABC
Antecedent:
Behaviour:
Consequence:

If the Consequence for abuse of officials is Uncertain opposed to Certain, or if the Consequence of Ice-pick or cross-check is No Flag!

Then it works perfectly as Positive Reinforcement (R+), as the player has Won the ball for his team / Stopped the Dodger / Injured or intimidated his opponent (sore ribs)

The Flag and One Minute in the Penalty Box and his Team a Man Down would be Negative Reinforcement (R-) i.e. don't do it again or we'll lose the game and the your team mates will call you a Gamma! :twisted:

We get is what we deserve:

No Flags = Abuse & breaking the Rules of the Game

or

Flags = Less Abuse (Zero Tolerance = No Abuse) & More players playing within the Rules of the Game.

Thoughts?



10p
Don Blacklock

I'll referee the perfect game

only when you play the perfect game.
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Tree13
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Re: Cross Checks, Abuse, Slashes & Trips

Postby Tree13 Wed Apr 04, 2012 1:28 pm

I have reffed men's lax in BUCS, SEMLA East 1, SEMLA East 2 and the Irish Lacrosse League, and in my experience there is very little abuse. Dissent is also, in my opinion, very rare but I would sugest that some referees have a very different interpretation of what amounts to dissent than others. There is a fair amount of robust language, but no more so than I have experienced in playing rugby and american football over the years.

I have also reffed Women's BUCS, and mixed lax: both of which, in my humble opinion, are home to a greater level of abuse and dissent. Much less swearing though. For good measure I have also reffed rugby and american football, and I would say both feature levels of abuse and dissent comparable to that of the Men's lax I mention above.

One thing that does strike me when comparing the various experiences, is that in any sport where I have witnessed abuse or dissent directed towards officials, it's usually been down to one of two reasons:

1) ref making "no call" on a perceived foul, with the "victim" player incensed and incredulous at the "injustice"
2) ref making a call that is perceived as incorrect to the point of unfairness

In my humble opinion, rugby and american football refs tend to handle these situations better than refs in other sports. This si what I see them do in response to those situations.

1) Explain that you can only call what you see. Nigel Owens in the Ireland v England game in this year's six nations provided a textbook example when Stephen Ferris waved a freshly-bitten finger for the ref to see, demanding the biter be dealt with. Owens did not see the incident so told Ferris that. He then called both captains over (the time delay allowing tempers to cool on both teams - excellent game management), clarified the allegation and instructed both captains to make it crystal clear to their teams that biting is an instant red card offence if seen by the ref, and one that can be cited after the game too. Play then resumed with no further problems.
2) Happens all the time in sports with technical rules regarding contact. The difficulties come when the ref forgets WHY the rules exist. They exist to prevent injury to participants. When a player questions a call WITHOUT swearing, he is simply seeking clarification on how ther ref has reached the conclusion - if the player UNDERSTANDS the ref's interpretation of a rule, he can modify his play to avoid repeating the same offence. If the ref simply views this inquiry as "dissent" and refuses to explain, the player is none the wiser. If the "dissent" is flagged too, I guarantee that player will be furious, and will take it out his opponents physically, or the ref verbally.
Of course, a player that goes beserk at the call and screams and swears at the ref is obviously not asking for the interpretation to be clarified, he is just showing dissent so flag him. But call the captain over with the player, clarify the intial call, rmind them both that dissent will not change the call AND remind the captain he is allowed to ask for clarification of an interpretation, then remind them that dissent is unacceptable. The time taken for you to do this will allow tempers to cool, the player will listen and will also feel that his "grievance" has been aired. You will then get less trouble.

Rugby refs manage it week in, week out. The rules may differ but the concept of using communication as a game management tool is universal. It's not rocket science.

As for cross-checks, slashes and trips - they're all fouls. If you see them, flag them. If you didn't see it, or a player appeals for a call that you feel is not warranted, SAY SO. Your voice is a more usful tool than your whistle and flags.
Tree13's posts only reflect Tree13's personal opinions. They do not represent the views of any other person, team or club. Any interpretation to the contrary is invalid.

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