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Screening the Goalkeepers View

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LacrosseRob
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Screening the Goalkeepers View

Postby LacrosseRob Sun Jan 08, 2012 12:49 pm

A tactic I've seen used a lot but one that the rules seem a bit unclear on (or more screening is legal, the responses to it may not be).

Scenario 1:
Red have the ball
Red Attacker without the ball is screening the goalkeepers view
Blue Goalkeeper calls in a defender to push the attacker clear of the crease (no body check or push in the back)

ruling?

Scenario 2:
Red have the ball
Red Attacker without the ball is screening the goalkeepers view
Blue Goalkeeper calls in a defender to push the attacker clear of the crease (no body check or push in the back)
Read Attacker attempts to move back to his previous position but is kept away by a combination of body position and pushing (not in the back) by Blue defender

ruling?

Anyone do anything else to prevent this happening?
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jacob
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Re: Screening the Goalkeepers View

Postby jacob Sun Jan 08, 2012 1:15 pm

Scenario 1 - will be interference by the defender and so a flag should be thrown.

Scenario 2 - again seems to be interference. After that, the defender may stand there if he wants to, but then he's just screening your view instead of the attacker. If the attacker attempts to push him off the spot then that's interference again, simultaneous fouls and a whistle.

Is this what our defence has been doing? lol. Surely you'd just want the defender to mark the attacker while trying to stay out of your way. I guess you'd have to re-adjust your position so you could keep your eye on the ball. If you sidestep a bit and move up the crease you should be able to see over the attacker.
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LacrosseRob
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Re: Screening the Goalkeepers View

Postby LacrosseRob Sun Jan 08, 2012 1:36 pm

Nope, though If I see it happening I'll get them to stand goalside of the screening attacker which seems to have discouraged people from shooting. It's not as simple as "moving so you can see" either you're putting yourself out of position so you can see and getting balls shot through the screen when they move after the release or you're waiting trying to fill as much of the goal as possible with poor visibility. I've never heard of jostling for position being illegal, or if it is it's the most widely ignored rule in lacrosse. I think defensively the real trick is that a man static on the crease is normally a bit wasted, you just need to pressure out to long shooters when the goalie calls screen.
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jacob
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Re: Screening the Goalkeepers View

Postby jacob Sun Jan 08, 2012 1:56 pm

It's a pretty basic rule that you can't push someone who doesn't have the ball, and who isn't within 9 feet of a loose ball. So a defender pushing the screening attacker off the crease as you described is a foul.

http://www.laxforums.co.uk/mens_rules.php#53

After re-reading the rules it looks like the scenario you described above isn't actually interference, although that may often be the call the ref would use. As you can see it's clearly an illegal push by the defender. The interference rule could be relevant in the situation in that it says a defender cannot mark an attacker so closely so as to block him from free movement.

http://www.laxforums.co.uk/mens_rules.php#52

I know a goalie's life isn't easy, I've been there. Personally, I prefer to be a bit out of position while still being able to see the ball (more time to react after the shot) rather than having a millisecond to react when it comes through the screen. Also don't discount the screen man as being wasted, they might fake a shot and pass it straight into his stick for a point blank shot on goal.
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dblacklock
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Re: Screening the Goalkeepers View

Postby dblacklock Wed Jan 11, 2012 12:12 am

interference on all accounts. You cannnot check or push or hold (other than equal pressure) a player who does not have possession of the ball or within 9 feet of a loose ball. As a defender or goalie you have few legal options to move a player screening a goalie.
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Re: Screening the Goalkeepers View

Postby webby Wed Jan 11, 2012 2:55 pm

dblacklock wrote:interference on all accounts. You cannnot check or push or hold (other than equal pressure) a player who does not have possession of the ball or within 9 feet of a loose ball. As a defender or goalie you have few legal options to move a player screening a goalie.


"Equal pressure" is what gets me.

Surely if an attacker is pushing against you, you can push him back with enough force so you both remain in the same position? Obviously not a violent push, but you must be able to stop his movements? I have been warned so many times by different referees to "let the player move", when the attacker is deliberately pushing into me and all I'm doing is meeting his force with equal pressure.

Any way, back to the original post, screening the goalie is a legitimate tactic and as far as I'm aware is a tactic used in most team sports that involve a goalkeer.
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Chilli
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Re: Screening the Goalkeepers View

Postby Chilli Wed Jan 11, 2012 5:09 pm

I think that you're confusing two different situations

A referee is likely to call 'let him move' when the ball is not within 9ft of the players involved and one of them is restricting the other's movement.

But if the ball is within 9ft then you have the right to resist his movement 'with equal pressure' the referee would have no reason to call 'let him move'
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Re: Screening the Goalkeepers View

Postby webby Wed Jan 11, 2012 5:25 pm

Chilli wrote:I think that you're confusing two different situations

A referee is likely to call 'let him move' when the ball is not within 9ft of the players involved and one of them is restricting the other's movement.

But if the ball is within 9ft then you have the right to resist his movement 'with equal pressure' the referee would have no reason to call 'let him move'


So if the ball is greater than 9ft away I have to "let the player move" and bulldoze through me?

Correct me if I am wrong, but the 9ft rule applies to a loose ball only (in the air or on the ground). If the ball is loose within 9ft and the attacker is a threat and the best option is physical play, why would I limit myself to "equal force"? Not that I'm saying a big hit is always the answer, but you're point doesn't make sense to me. I am not disagreeing that the two scenarios above are interference, but I was hoping to clarify the "let him move" call I hear every so often.

I fully agree that a defender cannot use force stop a player from cutting. However, why would it be interference or require a "let him move" call if someone is pushing/leaning into the defender, and the defender pushes/leans back into him "with equal pressure"? We have all seen it happen, especially on the crease. That being said, I have heard a referee call it once or twice against an attacking player, but 90% of the time it's against a defender.
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Re: Screening the Goalkeepers View

Postby UKLaxfan Wed Jan 11, 2012 5:40 pm

don't know if it's been mentioned but you can only screen the goalie with your back to him

If you face him and move left when he steps left and right when he leans right - you are face guarding him which is illegal

Very few players Screen now as shots have got more powerful and less accurate

at Hopkins in 70s & 80s every outside shot was screened, it has largely gone out of the game.
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Re: Screening the Goalkeepers View

Postby dblacklock Wed Jan 11, 2012 6:00 pm

U
UKLaxfan wrote:don't know if it's been mentioned but you can only screen the goalie with your back to him

If you face him and move left when he steps left and right when he leans right - you are face guarding him which is illegal

Very few players Screen now as shots have got more powerful and less accurate
I
at Hopkins in 70s & 80s every outside shot was screened, it has largely gone out of the game.

There is nothing in he rules that says you can only screen with your back. Faceguarding is not mentioned either.

On let him move this is called when a cutter has been checked when making their cut and is rarely anything to do with equal pressure. If an attack player is backing in on a defender, than the defender can hold his position with equal pressure but cannot push them away in a direction that player was not intending to go.
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Re: Screening the Goalkeepers View

Postby UKLaxfan Wed Jan 11, 2012 9:14 pm

dblacklock wrote:U
UKLaxfan wrote:don't know if it's been mentioned but you can only screen the goalie with your back to him

If you face him and move left when he steps left and right when he leans right - you are face guarding him which is illegal

Very few players Screen now as shots have got more powerful and less accurate
I
at Hopkins in 70s & 80s every outside shot was screened, it has largely gone out of the game.

There is nothing in he rules that says you can only screen with your back. Faceguarding is not mentioned either.

On let him move this is called when a cutter has been checked when making their cut and is rarely anything to do with equal pressure. If an attack player is backing in on a defender, than the defender can hold his position with equal pressure but cannot push them away in a direction that player was not intending to go.


Interesting...

Bill Pilat's "The Ball Stops Here" - Goalie Coaching DVD specifically highlights the rule :?:

Perhaps it is an NCAA Rule or under "Unsportsmanlike Conduct"

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Tree13
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Re: Screening the Goalkeepers View

Postby Tree13 Mon Jan 16, 2012 3:23 pm

webby wrote:
Chilli wrote:I think that you're confusing two different situations

A referee is likely to call 'let him move' when the ball is not within 9ft of the players involved and one of them is restricting the other's movement.

But if the ball is within 9ft then you have the right to resist his movement 'with equal pressure' the referee would have no reason to call 'let him move'


So if the ball is greater than 9ft away I have to "let the player move" and bulldoze through me?

Yes. But if he bulldozes through you in that scenario, the ref can flag him for interference, illegal push or unecessary roughness (depending on severity of contact). Repeated infractions could attract an Unsportsmanlike Conduct flag, I presume.

webby wrote:Correct me if I am wrong, but the 9ft rule applies to a loose ball only (in the air or on the ground). If the ball is loose within 9ft and the attacker is a threat and the best option is physical play, why would I limit myself to "equal force"? Not that I'm saying a big hit is always the answer, but you're point doesn't make sense to me. I am not disagreeing that the two scenarios above are interference, but I was hoping to clarify the "let him move" call I hear every so often.

1 - Correct, 9ft rule is loose ball only;
2 - There is no requirement to limit yourself to equal force, but the Unecessary Roughness rule will bite you if, in the ref's opinion, you used force excessive to the requirement of the situation. You can usually tell if the ref used to be an attacker or a defender by the way in which they assess this :wink:
3 - A big hit is always the answer. If it isn't, you're asking the wrong question :twisted:
4 - I've never been told to "let him move", but it sounds like a useful way of proactively refereeing off-ball interference as a precursor to throwing a flag.

webby wrote:I fully agree that a defender cannot use force stop a player from cutting. However, why would it be interference or require a "let him move" call if someone is pushing/leaning into the defender, and the defender pushes/leans back into him "with equal pressure"? We have all seen it happen, especially on the crease. That being said, I have heard a referee call it once or twice against an attacking player, but 90% of the time it's against a defender.

It's a judgement call for the ref to make. If he tells you to "let him (the opponent) move", he's doing you a favour by warning you instead of throwing a flag. Heed the warning.
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