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Whats the right call?

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c_green
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Whats the right call?

Postby c_green Thu Oct 20, 2011 5:10 pm

Reffed a BUCS game yesterday and a few things came up that I wasn't sure off.

1. Blue goal keeper came fully out of his crease with the ball, he was legally pushed back into his crease by a red attacker. When inside his crease the goalkeeper doped the ball and rolled into his goal before I could blow the whistle. I said no goal with red ball 15m to the side of the goal. Was this the correct call?

2. Is a missed stick check that hits the ankles or calf of an attacker a slash or a trip? I said it was a slash but a few people disagreed with me.

3. I called a head check on a blue defender, players from the blue and red team said he hit his own team mate. By this point the blue defender was off the pitch but play had not restarted. I said the foul still stood and carried on with the game. Was this the right thing to do or do you reverse a decision like that if its clear you have made a mistake?

Cheers, Chris
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rpowell
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Re: Whats the right call?

Postby rpowell Thu Oct 20, 2011 7:19 pm

c_green wrote:Reffed a BUCS game yesterday and a few things came up that I wasn't sure off.

1. Blue goal keeper came fully out of his crease with the ball, he was legally pushed back into his crease by a red attacker. When inside his crease the goalkeeper doped the ball and rolled into his goal before I could blow the whistle. I said no goal with red ball 15m to the side of the goal. Was this the correct call?

You were right. No other call could be made... the keeper took the ball back-in to the crease, so you could not use a "play-on", as the ball was not loose.
But 20 yards out from goal is the distance you want...

c_green wrote:2. Is a missed stick check that hits the ankles or calf of an attacker a slash or a trip? I said it was a slash but a few people disagreed with me.

Well, if it didn't hit the stick or gloved hand, it sounds like a slash.
I'd reserve the trip call for putting your leg in the way of a player, or a deliberate attempt to bring a player down with the stick - something more than just a hold.
Might be one of those things you need to see to decide which to call, but I'd go with your call. based on the description.

c_green wrote:3. I called a head check on a blue defender, players from the blue and red team said he hit his own team mate. By this point the blue defender was off the pitch but play had not restarted. I said the foul still stood and carried on with the game. Was this the right thing to do or do you reverse a decision like that if its clear you have made a mistake?

If he hit his own team-mate, there are two possibilities:
1) He meant to hit a player on his team, in which case it is a slash.
2) He didn't mean to hit another player on his team, in which case it was reckless, and still a slash.

I make that c_green 3 and 0 :)
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laxambition
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Re: Whats the right call?

Postby laxambition Thu Oct 20, 2011 8:41 pm

rpowell wrote:.
If he hit his own team-mate, there are two possibilities:
1) He meant to hit a player on his team, in which case it is a slash.
2) He didn't mean to hit another player on his team, in which case it was reckless, and still a slash.



Rule 71 (slashing) specifically states "opponent" so if he meant to hit his team mate and did then it can't be a slash. It can, however, be "Unnecesary roughness" If it was a) avoidable, and b) deliberate and excessively violent

If he meant to hit the opponent but hit his team-mate, then it can be a slash even if contact is not made with the target.

But still 3 correct calls in terms of penalty time even if not the actual foul
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Re: Whats the right call?

Postby rpowell Thu Oct 20, 2011 9:03 pm

laxambition wrote:
rpowell wrote:If he hit his own team-mate, there are two possibilities:
1) He meant to hit a player on his team, in which case it is a slash.
2) He didn't mean to hit another player on his team, in which case it was reckless, and still a slash.

Rule 71 (slashing) specifically states "opponent" so if he meant to hit his team mate and did then it can't be a slash. It can, however, be "Unnecesary roughness" If it was a) avoidable, and b) deliberate and excessively violent

If he meant to hit the opponent but hit his team-mate, then it can be a slash even if contact is not made with the target.

But still 3 correct calls in terms of penalty time even if not the actual foul

Yes, excellent point on the "opponent" bit; slash is out.
You could also make a case for Unsportsmanlike Conduct...
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UKLacrosse
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Re: Whats the right call?

Postby UKLacrosse Thu Oct 20, 2011 9:53 pm

rpowell wrote:
laxambition wrote:
rpowell wrote:If he hit his own team-mate, there are two possibilities:
1) He meant to hit a player on his team, in which case it is a slash.
2) He didn't mean to hit another player on his team, in which case it was reckless, and still a slash.

Rule 71 (slashing) specifically states "opponent" so if he meant to hit his team mate and did then it can't be a slash. It can, however, be "Unnecesary roughness" If it was a) avoidable, and b) deliberate and excessively violent

If he meant to hit the opponent but hit his team-mate, then it can be a slash even if contact is not made with the target.

But still 3 correct calls in terms of penalty time even if not the actual foul

Yes, excellent point on the "opponent" bit; slash is out.
You could also make a case for Unsportsmanlike Conduct...


You could still just give the penalty for 'uncontrolled'. If it was considered reckless/ uncontrolled play, it matters little who he did or didn't hit??
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dblacklock
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Re: Whats the right call?

Postby dblacklock Fri Oct 21, 2011 9:08 am

When I assess officials I look at what is known as penalty selection. For many infractions you can call either a technical or a personal. Holding is a good example. A simple hold is a technical, but a headlock could be construed as unnecessary roughness, a personal foul. A good official knows which to call for each scenario. However, credibilit yfor the official can be built when the right penalty is applied and called for the infraction. So, as Rob pointed out, the swing of the stick catching the player on the foot is more of a slash then a trip, as according to the trip rule, a trip must be a deliberate action and so in the scenario presented here clearly the defender did not attempt to trip, but rather just swung his stick. This sounds more like reckless abandon which forms part of the slashing definition.

At the end of the day, so long as we apply the proper amount of time for the infraction we have achieved what we need to and served the game correctly. The second part is more about honing your skills as an official.
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Re: Whats the right call?

Postby jebedee Mon Nov 07, 2011 1:01 pm

Is there any reason this wouldn't be called as interference for an unintentional trip? Naturally depending on aggression involved...
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Re: Whats the right call?

Postby dblacklock Sun Nov 13, 2011 11:18 pm

jebedee wrote:Is there any reason this wouldn't be called as interference for an unintentional trip? Naturally depending on aggression involved...


You need to look at the interference rule to see why you should not make this call.

Rule 52 Interference
52.1 A player may not interfere in any manner with an opponent in
an attempt to keep him from a loose ball except when both are
within 9 feet (2.74 metres) of such loose ball.
52.2 A player may not, by the use of his body or his crosse, interfere
with a player who is in pursuit of an opponent who has
possession of the ball.
Section 9 Technical Fouls
58 FIL™ December 2010
52.3 A player may not guard an opponent so closely as to prevent
the opponent’s free movement when the opponent is not in
possession of the ball.
52.4 Nothing in this rule is intended to prohibit a legal offensive
pick.

Emphasis added

Now that you can see the rule, there is nothing in the rule that allows for a call of interference on a ball carrier. The whole notion of lacrosse is to interfere with the ball carrier - that is what we refer to as defense. So by definition just because two guys are running side by side and the ball carrier goes down does not equal interference to the defender. I never see any referee who makes this call of interference on the ball carrier when the defender trips and falls over. So, your choice of penalty s either a trip, or at the most, a hold, but likely nothing.

Let the flood-gates open
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Re: Whats the right call?

Postby jebedee Mon Nov 14, 2011 9:09 am

That seems entirely reasonable. Hadn't really considered the distinction between ball carrier/defender in this case.
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Moaning Git
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Re: Whats the right call?

Postby Moaning Git Mon Nov 14, 2011 6:44 pm

This more than anything else bugs me simply because it has been discussed for a number of years and still there is no consistency.

If I feel that a defender has got in too close to the ball carrier that their legs get tangled I will call a hold. However it is a judgement call as to whether the ball carrier in attempting to dodge or turn is the one who initiates the contact in which case there is no penalty.

Too often though in my opinion refs are unduly influenced by coaches, players and spectators and call a trip, which is an intentional personal foul.


Another call that caused issues in my match this weekend, ball shot, misses the goal, keeper clamps it in the crease, I start the count, keeper in rather a forthright way tells me I have got it wrong as the ball is not in his stick, I continue the count, get to 4 call change of possession keeper goes ballistic, nominated D get a minute for unsportsmanlike, followed by another D who thinks in sensible to insinuate I am cheating.... well not insinuate actually, it was much more forthright than that! It has been made clear at refs courses and refs seminars for some years now that the count starts when the ball is within the protection of the keepers stick and the crease, but after the game the keeper explains that this has never been explained to him before, and the count has never started until the ball was within his stick before. Interestingly it is likely that new referees who have recently completed the course will get this right, but some older more experienced club refs may not and this could put pressure on new refs officiating at home or away.
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Re: Whats the right call?

Postby DanSawyer Mon Nov 14, 2011 9:36 pm

Out of interest, how long did you give the guy who said you were cheating?
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Re: Whats the right call?

Postby dblacklock Tue Nov 15, 2011 8:33 am

Moaning Git is entirely correct in his assessment of when the count starts. We have had over 100 people through referee courses this year. You would think that this would now be understood by the masses, but sadly it is not.

For the record, if a player suggests to me in such a forthright manner that I am cheating, I will need to be writing a report to the league at the end of the game. Interpret that as you see fit.

Well done John.
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Chilli
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Re: Whats the right call?

Postby Chilli Tue Nov 15, 2011 9:04 am

One of this seasons Points of Emphasis for Referees was 'zero tolerance' of dissent.

Until all such incidents are punished immediately with penalties or expulsion, how can we ever expect to attract and retain people to take on the refereeing role?

We must realise that dissent and abuse doesn't simply affect the referee but the remaining 20+ players who make a mental note 'that's one more reason why I'll never be a ref'

Unless the current generation of refs take a strong and consistent stand across all refs and all games, the situation will only get worse.
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Re: Whats the right call?

Postby Moaning Git Tue Nov 15, 2011 2:28 pm

Out of interest, how long did you give the guy who said you were cheating?


Just to expand a bit on the situation. The match was proving a little one sided, I was travelling ref and the other ref was the home ref, no panel ref. Talking priot to the game both refs and CBO discussed game management and agreed that we would watchout for dissent and any mounting tension.

The tone was set very early when the Black Captain was given 1 minute for dissent on a call made by the home ref. The player turned to me to ask why he was being sent off and I explained the dissent and influencing a refs calls section in the rules and supported the Home refs call.

Things stayed calm until just before half time when I threw a flag for a hold which was queried by a blue player, as we had effectively kept a running commentary through the game with players, giving warnings, explaining calls to try and keep a lid on any dissent I explained thecall, but in so doing took my eye off the game and missed an offside which was also missed by the CBO who had two men on the bench with overlapping penalties.

At half time I confered with the home ref and we spoke to the captains explaining that we did not mind answering questions but not at the expense of the game so would not respond at the expense of ofciating, and would not take any dissent as it was a pretty tough game to ref, not because it was a dirty game with lots of fouls, quite the opposite it was a good game despite the goal difference with blue playing hard to get back into the match.

So when the initial incident of the goalie clamping the ball happened I actually ignored his first coments as they were out of frustration and also out of character with the game. It was when I asked him to stop making comments and he did not listen that I threw the flag for him. That then led to the more serious comments from the other player, which again I asked him to be quiet before throwing the flag, this just led to more comments so the flag went and I gave 3 minutes, which I hoped would make him see sense, instead it led to more comments so he got a further flag and a further 3 minutes. He then earned another 1 minute as he started to leave the field and then decided to turn around to make further comments.


I thought about it after the game (when incidently I had a drink with the player involved and discussed lacrosse in general, quite amicably and shook hands), and if there was anything else I could have done to defuse the situation. I am sure that the original call of 3 minutes was right because of what was said and the previous warnings given to teams, the call was proportionate. Taken as a separate incident the content of the further comments made also deserved 3 minutes, whether I should have toned down my response as it was obvious that the player would simply respond aggressively is a mute point, on balance I think it was right but I am sure that his team mates will have thought it excessive. In fact a number of other Blue players then started to quietly pass critical comments on my calls, these I chose to ignore as they were neither as loud or as abusive as the comments above. The problem is that they will see him behave like that every week and they will get used to it and to some way accept it as just the way he is, so when the team is penalised for what they see as being just his normal way of acting then they feel hard done by. From my point of view though the issue is consistency. I cannot let someone get away with a comment one week, and then do nothing the next. I do not have the time and it is not my job to act as a behaviour counsellor, although game management is an area that I need to work on.

Sorry the answer to the question is so long, but the situation was not as clear cut as it might seem at first and was out out of kilter with the rest of the game.
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Re: Whats the right call?

Postby DanSawyer Tue Nov 15, 2011 3:10 pm

I'm not a ref (yet) in lacrosse, but as a ref in another sport and more importantly as a player and coach of lacrosse, the only criticism I would even consider of the calls made is that the turn back and comment only got 1 minute.

I agree entirely with zero tolerance for this sort of thing. If you allow it a little you'll allow it a little more and before you know it you end up with football.

I wondered about expulsion but I prefer the approach taken: means man down for 7 minutes rather than 3!

Bravo sir!
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Re: Whats the right call?

Postby Chilli Tue Nov 15, 2011 5:19 pm

The wider issue is that unless behaviour of that sort is controlled and eradicated at team and Club level, so next week that behaviour will again be intimidating another ref who may or may not handle it well.
The only guarantee, as I repeatedly emphasise, is that every other player watching, thinks, 'no way will I ever be a ref, you get no back up, no support and have to take all that crap'
What kind of an encouragement is that except for sado-masochists?
In my opinion, drinking and making up in the bar should be for players from rival teams not for referees and just ensures that a bad situation stays bad.
Unless all referees apply zero-tolerance equally to every game, we are letting each other down and making some refs appear more zealous than others.
No dissent means no dissent, talk to the ref through the captain, end of story.
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Re: Whats the right call?

Postby UKLacrosse Tue Nov 15, 2011 6:30 pm

On the 'zero tolerance' I've been a strong advocate of this for as long as I've watched lacrosse. As a spectator it is not good to see a game where foul language and abuse is tolerated. The worst is the inconsistency, where in the past a more experienced referee will take all sorts of comments but a less experienced one tries to control it by penalising even the most polite of questions. This season it has clearly been focussed upon, but still we see huge inconsistency e.g. in one game a goalie bellowed out remarks against the calls being made - no penalty. Then one player from the opposing team questioned why he was getting a penlty, and despite being only 10-15 yards away we could not hear what he said... maybe he used foul language, but he claims not! He got an added penalty for dissent. Not long afterwards, a decision went against the other team and 3 of the players, led by the goalie, bellowed aloud their thoughts about the decision ... no penalty!!
A strange interpretation of zero tolerance.
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Re: Whats the right call?

Postby Moaning Git Fri Nov 18, 2011 12:23 am

drinking and making up in the bar should be for players from rival teams not for referees and just ensures that a bad situation stays bad.


If the calls on the field are still made and there is no hostility in the air, why not have a drink and discussion afterwards? Now the North has travelling refs with each team is it better for a ref who has made some hard calls against the home team to be sitting and having a drink with their own club members, or with members o the home team and discussing sensibly the game? Or should refs simply sit on their own?

I think there is no definite answer but personally I think that discussing things can often avoid later problems
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Re: Whats the right call?

Postby Chilli Fri Nov 18, 2011 10:57 am

John, I didn't intend for one second to suggest that referees should not socialise after the game, of course they should, but not to allow the bad behaviour on the pitch to be washed away to be repeated next week.

My intention was to make clear my strong belief that for far too long, perhaps decades, the game has created its own problems with referee recruitment by tacitly indulging player misbehaviour by sweeping it under the carpet with 'let's have a drink afterwards in the bar'

This has only allowed the bad behaviour to become normalised and expected, some refs believe that it shows superior game management that they can 'take it' on the field and still be 'good old boys' in the bar afterwards, all the time completely overlooking the disastrous effect that such attitudes have on the other players witnessing that behaviour again and again . Those very other players who, except in rare cases, are the only recruiting pool for future referees. They see that there's almost no penalties to the player, the team, the club, so see that there's no real reason to prevent such behaviour.

If I had a pound for every time over the last forty years I've heard players say that there's no way they'd ever ref a game because of the stuff that's said and done on the pitch, I'd be rich.

If the softly, softly approach had any chance of success, why don't we have more referees than we need?

If the game is to grow we need more referees, if we're to get more referees we have to sort out behaviour issues on and off the pitch so that refereeing, eventually, becomes something that players want to do
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Re: Whats the right call?

Postby Moaning Git Fri Nov 18, 2011 12:59 pm

And I agree with what you are saying in terms of what we need. The situation in NEMLA though is new. We now have home refs travelling to away matches, where they are working with otherclub as oppossed to panel refs. I have had experience of being accused of bias as a home ref, now I get the chance to travel and face the same comments. I know panel refs face this as part and parcel of their duties but it is new to me.

I don't think that being friendly with a player or players would impact on the calls I make on field one jot, as the call tends to be instinctive and automatic, but being able to talk through the call and explain it sensibly does no harm and may do some good.

In this case speaking to the goalkeeper and clarifying the crease rules, and talking about the need to protect refs from abuse and intimidation I think was useful, and it does say a lot that despite the high tension during the game that a calm and sensible discussion was possible afterwards with some of the players involved. Hopefully we all learned a little on the day.

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