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Out of bounds question...

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Steely Dan
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Re: Out of bounds question...

Postby Steely Dan Sat Jul 23, 2011 12:34 pm

Surely the end point of any rule set is to descriptive enough to prevent individual interpretation? The ideal set of rules should be black and White with zero grey area, if this is true the rule book should be amended to accommodate unusual and unexpected scenarios as when they are brought up during the evolution of the game?

Maybe this is an anal approach, however it is much easier to discuss and determine the outcome of a scenario off the field, and it is only right that the expertise of the refereeing body is filtered down to make the job of the novice referee easier (in the same way that the skill and knowledge of the game is passed down by experience players and coaches)
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Moaning Git
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Re: Out of bounds question...

Postby Moaning Git Sun Jul 24, 2011 4:30 pm

You will never get a set of rules to cover every situation and to try to achieve that is fairly futile though I have no problem at all with discussing situations actual or imaginary, but when it becomes a damed life and death debate,well I would rather waych Eastenders.

As for the rules, one of the best and most experienced refs I have met said, at a training course, it was not knowledge of the rules that makes a good ref, but knowing when not to apply them!
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Re: Out of bounds question...

Postby dblacklock Sun Jul 24, 2011 6:38 pm

I participate in this part of the forum as a public service so to speak. However if people want to continue to take the proverbial piss out of the posts then I shall refrain. i'm not taking my toys and throwing them from the pram, but don't waste my time.

As mentioned in anearlier post I have sent this question to the FIL Rules Committee as clearly there is no rule that covers this situation. I await the direction from Terry Harding on this one and to let me know as the FIL Chair of Officiating how we should implement a ruling for the sitation that Rob has raised. Rob Powell did what any good referee should have. He employed common sense. I suspect on the day no one wined about the call. Rob could have gone away and not done anything about it. But instead he showed how good of a referee he is by posing the question and seeking guidance. Good thing as this is how we all improve.

For those that want a fully prescribed rule book and for it to be applied the same for every level of every game and every second of the game, then you are playing the wrong sport. Take up tidly winks (but I suspect that there are nuances in this rule set as well). I could find a reason to whistle every 20 seconds and have teams playing short handed the entire game. For the majority out there I do not think that this is what is desired. Instead, common sense officiating is what is required. It's up the players. If you did not infringe the rules our job would be to pull the ball out of the net, conduct the face offs, and run the clock. However becuase you are incapable of doing this we will have to actually continue to referee games. I suspect (but do not know for sure) that those that are calling for every rule to be called every minute of the game are likely non referees. I invite you to attend a referee course and learn how to referee so that you can see why perhaps you do not want us to referee the type of game that the minority are calling for.
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Steely Dan
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Re: Out of bounds question...

Postby Steely Dan Sun Jul 24, 2011 10:23 pm

I don't think anyone is saying that the rules should be imposed without consideration for the circumstances, nor should referees apply the rules as if we're an automaton, calling up every infringement every minute of the game.

However I do think that where oddball scenarios like this crop up, the circumstances and potential outcomes should be discussed and a route forward determined by players and referees in an open manner. Speaking as a novice referee, being able to draw on this experience, once documented, would certainly make the job easier in my mind for these more unusual circumstances.
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Re: Out of bounds question...

Postby dblacklock Sun Jul 24, 2011 11:27 pm

Steely Dan wrote:I don't think anyone is saying that the rules should be imposed without consideration for the circumstances, nor should referees apply the rules as if we're an automaton, calling up every infringement every minute of the game.

However I do think that where oddball scenarios like this crop up, the circumstances and potential outcomes should be discussed and a route forward determined by players and referees in an open manner. Speaking as a novice referee, being able to draw on this experience, once documented, would certainly make the job easier in my mind for these more unusual circumstances.


I agree completely about discussing rules, their possible outcomes and suggestions for how we deal with something or perhaps how we might have dealt with something better. This is what I am trying to do and will continue to do to help the cause.

Keep firing in your constructive ideas and suggestions. I agree that referees cannot make up the rules in isolation. This is why the FIL Rules Committee is comprised of referees, coaches and players.

Everyone needs to look at Rule 51

Rule 51 The Nature Of A Technical Foul
51.1

Technical fouls are those of a less serious kind.
Any breach of the rules of play as set forth in this section shall
be a technical foul unless that breach is specifically listed as a
personal or expulsion foul in Sections 10 or 11.
Some of the technical fouls that require definition are listed
below, but this section is not intended to be comprehensive and
all-inclusive.


The authors of the rule book acknowledged that there could never be a complete listing of technical infractions for every eventuality and instead included the clause above to guide officials. That is to say that the referee can impose a technical foul on a player for a situation that is deemed technical in nature, but not necessarily listed in the book in black and white. Sort of sounds like case law to me. But I am sure our esteemed barristers and soliciters who play, coach or referee our game can wade in on that similarity.
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Re: Out of bounds question...

Postby DanSawyer Mon Jul 25, 2011 12:02 am

dblacklock wrote:
Everyone needs to look at Rule 51

Rule 51 The Nature Of A Technical Foul
51.1

Technical fouls are those of a less serious kind.
Any breach of the rules of play as set forth in this section shall
be a technical foul unless that breach is specifically listed as a
personal or expulsion foul in Sections 10 or 11.
Some of the technical fouls that require definition are listed
below, but this section is not intended to be comprehensive and
all-inclusive.

The authors of the rule book acknowledged that there could never be a complete listing of technical infractions for every eventuality and instead included the clause above to guide officials. That is to say that the referee can impose a technical foul on a player for a situation that is deemed technical in nature, but not necessarily listed in the book in black and white. Sort of sounds like case law to me. But I am sure our esteemed barristers and soliciters who play, coach or referee our game can wade in on that similarity.


The thing with caselaw is that it basically becomes part of the rules. I'd be interested to know what happens if a referee comes across a situation that is new and makes a technical call. Does he then report that situation to the FIL and they 'legislate' for it? I'd guess so given what you've id about contacting them about this out of bounds point.

I'd never that point about r51 that way. I'd always imagined that it meant that it was the definitions that were not exclusive and that e.g. illegal procedure can be committed in more ways than are set out there. But you're clearly right, that's not what it says. Out of interest, what would you call to give the guy his novel penalty? What hand signal would you use to signal it to the bench?
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dblacklock
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Re: Out of bounds question...

Postby dblacklock Mon Jul 25, 2011 8:28 pm

You can virtually work an entire game with two signals - Illegal procedure (all technical penalties) and Unnecessary Roughness (all personal fouls). Okay so you may need Unsportsmanlike conduct as well.

We very much encourage officials that handle a situation during a game that they are unsure of, or if after some research they cannot find what they should have done to contact the ELA Referees & Rules Committee, who will then review the situation and if necessary send on to the FIl for further clarification. As I'm the FIL Chair of Officiating I passed go (wished I had collected the £200) and went directly to Terry Harding (Canada)who hopefully will get us a response (Terry trolls this part of the forum as well).

As an aside, at each World Championship we have a committee dedicated to rules interpertations. At one worlds the referee on the day had a really tricky situation. It took him and his crew 5 minutes to sort it out. The referee got castigated for the time it took to sort it. That night the Committee reviewed it and it took 4 hours to go through it, only to arrive at the same answer as the referee on the day. See, not always that easy. This led to a rule change to simplify how it should be dealt with in the future and to make it easier for the referees.
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rpowell
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Re: Out of bounds question...

Postby rpowell Wed Jul 27, 2011 12:17 am

I think our colonial cousins have the solution for this...

NCAA rules for 2011-12, on the subject of ball stuck in crosse, section 7 b.
"If at any point the ball becomes stuck in the front or back of the crosse, there shall be an immediate whistle, and the ball shall be awarded to the opposing team. This rule applies when a player loses his crosse and the ball remains in the crosse."

So if a player loses their crosse, and the ball stays in the crosse - even if it isn't stuck there - it is treated as if it were stuck. Immediately stop play and give it to the other team.

Looks as though the second sentence, about a player losing their crosse, was added in 2009-10.

Not a bad shout - maybe worth adopting in FIL?
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webby
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Re: Out of bounds question...

Postby webby Thu Jul 28, 2011 3:23 pm

rpowell wrote:I think our colonial cousins have the solution for this...

NCAA rules for 2011-12, on the subject of ball stuck in crosse, section 7 b.
"If at any point the ball becomes stuck in the front or back of the crosse, there shall be an immediate whistle, and the ball shall be awarded to the opposing team. This rule applies when a player loses his crosse and the ball remains in the crosse."

So if a player loses their crosse, and the ball stays in the crosse - even if it isn't stuck there - it is treated as if it were stuck. Immediately stop play and give it to the other team.

Looks as though the second sentence, about a player losing their crosse, was added in 2009-10.

Not a bad shout - maybe worth adopting in FIL?


Using a withholding call?
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rpowell
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Re: Out of bounds question...

Postby rpowell Thu Jul 28, 2011 5:48 pm

webby wrote:
rpowell wrote:I think our colonial cousins have the solution for this...

NCAA rules for 2011-12, on the subject of ball stuck in crosse, section 7 b.
"If at any point the ball becomes stuck in the front or back of the crosse, there shall be an immediate whistle, and the ball shall be awarded to the opposing team. This rule applies when a player loses his crosse and the ball remains in the crosse."

So if a player loses their crosse, and the ball stays in the crosse - even if it isn't stuck there - it is treated as if it were stuck. Immediately stop play and give it to the other team.

Looks as though the second sentence, about a player losing their crosse, was added in 2009-10.

Not a bad shout - maybe worth adopting in FIL?


Using a withholding call?


Yeah - maybe make it 58.5 :)
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dblacklock
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Re: Out of bounds question...

Postby dblacklock Fri Jul 29, 2011 1:00 pm

Think this makes sense. Let's see what the FIL Rules Committee comes back with.
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Re: Out of bounds question...

Postby lax_mad_webborn Fri Sep 09, 2011 12:54 pm

Any updates on this yet?
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