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Out of bounds question...

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rpowell
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Out of bounds question...

Postby rpowell Sat Jul 16, 2011 6:45 pm

Situtuation from the Prague Cup last weekend. This amused me :)

Red in possession, Black check red stick. The Red stick windmills through the air, but retains the ball, and lands on the ground, ball still in the pocket.

Black flicks the Red stick (without touching the ball) off the field. Ball is now out of bounds.

Possession goes to...?
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Re: Out of bounds question...

Postby Blind Zebra Sat Jul 16, 2011 7:13 pm

Black. Red were the last team to touch it before it went out of bounds.

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Re: Out of bounds question...

Postby rpowell Sat Jul 16, 2011 10:27 pm

That's an excellent starter for 10.

But playing Devil's advocate:

1) Flicking the stick away - surely that's an illegal check when the Red player is more than 3 yeards from the ball. Even if Red's stick wasn't 3 yards away from the ball :)

2) You aren't allowed to throw your own stick - are you allowed to throw another player's stick..? Even by flicking it with your own stick?
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Re: Out of bounds question...

Postby julius125 Sat Jul 16, 2011 10:57 pm

quite a few potential calls here:

1) as suggested above, black possession as red technically touched the ball last before it went out of bounds

2) call goes against black, for unsportsmanlike conduct for knocking an opponents stick off the pitch when he wasn't holding it, and since the black player could've waited for the red player to touch his stick, then knock it away to make it legal - also call for illegal check/possibly interference as you said

3) call against red for with-holding of the ball or delay of the game, or maybe even unsportsmanlike if it was preventing the other team from playing the ball/game

going with my head I'd have given possession to black, as it would technically be their ball... going with my heart I'd have said a face off in interest of fairness, or even a womens style throw in from the sideline! :wink:

what did you actually call in the end?
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Re: Out of bounds question...

Postby jameskellam Sun Jul 17, 2011 10:58 am

Concentrate on what black did. Was he trying to put distance between red and red's stick so that red would have a harder time picking it back up and resuming play? In which case red ball, interference by black (or call it as unsportsmanlike if the stick travels a truly heinous distance). Or was black simply either trying to play the ball and/or win possession by forcing the ball out of bounds without himself touching it - black ball, red touched it last.
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Re: Out of bounds question...

Postby davidmcculloch81 Mon Jul 18, 2011 8:56 am

jameskellam wrote:Was he trying to put distance between red and red's stick so that red would have a harder time picking it back up and resuming play? In which case red ball, interference by black (or call it as unsportsmanlike if the stick travels a truly heinous distance)


Followed by stick check.
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Re: Out of bounds question...

Postby rpowell Mon Jul 18, 2011 10:00 pm

davidmcculloch81 wrote:Followed by stick check.

The retention of the ball by the stick had crossed my mind. But of course we leave that decision for the head coach, don't we? :)
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Re: Out of bounds question...

Postby webby Mon Jul 18, 2011 10:26 pm

rpowell wrote:
davidmcculloch81 wrote:Followed by stick check.

The retention of the ball by the stick had crossed my mind. But of course we leave that decision for the head coach, don't we? :)


Or captain (who has a head coach!).
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Re: Out of bounds question...

Postby Moaning Git Tue Jul 19, 2011 11:31 am

As the player has no stick in his hand, he can take no part in the game so he cannot be fouled against. The ball can be dislodged from the stick so keep playing. If the ball cannot be recovered in one continous motion deal with as if ball stuck in mud. Seems to make a sort of sense!
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motion..

Postby Anthony Parker Tue Jul 19, 2011 4:56 pm

What did the 3rd team do that game, Bonkin'?

What was the reaction like to the Head Referee's final decision as to what to do??

Is there any video footage regarding the situation you enjoyed???

It's good to read your contributions on here.


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Re: motion..

Postby rpowell Tue Jul 19, 2011 6:35 pm

Hi Tony..

I gave a sideline ball to Red, on a gut-instinct-call that Black had put the ball out (even if it wasn't in a black stick). The Black player thought it should have gone his way, but didn't make a song & dance of it. I was head referee, and didn't over-rule myself :)
No impact to result, Black (Czech composite team) were easy winners over Red (Czech U19).

Very useful discussion here - not sure I've come to a conclusion, so I'll ask the usual suspects next time I'm at a refereeing course! But having read the relevant rules and listened to opinions above, I probably wouldn't give the same decision if the same thing happened again. I'm thinking one of:

A) Sideline-ball to Black. He was just smart.
B) Interference on Black, ball goes to Red at where the stick was flicked from.

But definitely not the sideline ball to Red I gave...
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Re: Out of bounds question...

Postby rpowell Tue Jul 19, 2011 8:30 pm

webby wrote:
rpowell wrote:The retention of the ball by the stick had crossed my mind. But of course we leave that decision for the head coach, don't we? :)

Or captain (who has a head coach!).

That reminds me... when the same two teams met earlier on in the round-robin of the tournament, we asked for the Red head-coach. One of the players from the Black team came forward and said "that's me". Still wearing his black jersey.

We did wonder exactly where he would be allowed to stand on the sideline, and when & who he would be allowed to call a time-out or stick-check for... gotta love tournaments... :)

(he was just coaching when it came to the final)
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Re: Out of bounds question...

Postby dblacklock Tue Jul 19, 2011 9:29 pm

Interesting one that I could not easily come up with answer. Thought was that Red lst touched the ball (when the stick was in his hands) so ball goes black. However could it be UC for flicking the stick away?

Had a conference call with Terry Harding - Chair FIL Rules. Nothing directly in the book to cover this one.

He wil ponder, ask his committee and I will update here.

Great scenario that surely needs clarification
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Re: Out of bounds question...

Postby jameskellam Tue Jul 19, 2011 10:45 pm

As the player has no stick in his hand, he can take no part in the game so he cannot be fouled against.


Not convinced this is right. If red drops his stick, can the entire blue team really pound him senseless without fear of sanction from the ref? If the red and blue coaches start effing and blinding can we not penalise either of them? If blue drops his stick and moons the royal box is there no penalty we can award (assuming the Queen isn't holding a stick)?
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Re: Out of bounds question...

Postby DanSawyer Wed Jul 20, 2011 12:28 am

James raises the same questions I had, but rather more graphically!
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Re: Out of bounds question...

Postby Moaning Git Wed Jul 20, 2011 12:32 am

James is totally wrong, first of all unless the red player is on or close to the centre line, blue will be off side. The coaches are guilty of unsportman, as is the mooner unless the Queen grants him a royal pardon!
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Re: Out of bounds question...

Postby Ketts19 Wed Jul 20, 2011 8:47 am

Moaning Git wrote:As the player has no stick in his hand, he can take no part in the game so he cannot be fouled against.


So in essence what you're saying is that if a player has his stick checked out of his hand, he can be open to anything from a push in the back to full on GBH without sanction from the referee :?: :!: :?:
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Re: Out of bounds question...

Postby the pom Wed Jul 20, 2011 11:14 am

Moaning Git wrote:
As the player has no stick in his hand, he can take no part in the game so he cannot be fouled against.

i must remeber this next time i knock someones stick out of their hands
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Re: Out of bounds question...

Postby Moaning Git Wed Jul 20, 2011 2:20 pm

Jesus rule lawyers, they always go to the extreme. If a player does not have a stick in his hand he cannot take any part in the game until he retrieves it. So strictly he cannot trigger a foul, except to put his own team offside which is why refs may tell him to retrieve his stick and give him time to do so.

If the ball is trapped in the stick it is reasonable to allow either team to attempt to dislodge it to continue play. However if the ball remains lodged in the stick surely the ball is mired and a face is called for. The flicking of the stick to retrieve the ball is not unsportsmanlike.

As the player without the stick is not part of the game he takes the same status as a spectator until he retrieves his stick. Assault on a spectator could constitute an expulsion foul, and continued assault would constitute criminal assault. Job done!
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Re: Out of bounds question...

Postby buckers_the_great Wed Jul 20, 2011 3:42 pm

Moaning Git has spoken!

Great thread though, i wonder if we'll see this question in the Ref's exam in years to come?
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