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Butt end rules

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gh07gh
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Butt end rules

Postby gh07gh Thu Apr 28, 2011 7:47 pm

Does anybody know the rules regarding what materials a butt end can be made of? I'm aware the bottom must but unsure as to the rest of the rules relating to this...
Ta
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Re: Butt end rules

Postby webby Thu Apr 28, 2011 9:49 pm

gh07gh wrote:Does anybody know the rules regarding what materials a butt end can be made of? I'm aware the bottom must but unsure as to the rest of the rules relating to this...
Ta


I believe as long as there are no sharp metal edges showing and that the butt end poses no danger to others or yourself you're fine.
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angles
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Re: Butt end rules

Postby angles Fri Apr 29, 2011 12:49 am

I think the rules say plastic, wood or tape but as with most rules just apply common sense!
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gh07gh
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Re: Butt end rules

Postby gh07gh Fri Apr 29, 2011 8:42 am

ok thanks for that, figured you would say common sense but good to get other opinions....
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Re: Butt end rules

Postby Sour37 Fri Apr 29, 2011 9:17 am

gh07gh wrote:ok thanks for that, figured you would say common sense but good to get other opinions....


Bottle caps are specifically prohibited. But other than that as long as it ain't dangerous...go wild
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Re: Butt end rules

Postby dblacklock Mon May 02, 2011 7:22 pm

Copied from the 2011 FIL rule book. Hope this helps

15.4
The head of the crosse shall be made of wood, laminated wood,
plastic, or any other material approved by the FIL, and the shaft
shall be made of wood, aluminium or any other material
approved by the FIL.

The butt-end of the crosse handle must either be solid with no
sharp edges or, if hollow, it must have its open end adequately
covered with plastic, rubber or tape to prevent injury.
The use of metal caps is prohibited.
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Re: Butt end rules

Postby UKLacrosse Mon May 02, 2011 7:48 pm

Don, is this rule implemented by the referees, or only if the opposing coach/ captain calls a stick check?
If this is a safety rule, like the 2 inches of string/ lace then it seems odd that the refrees do not have control over safety, and that it's left to the decision of the opposition??
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Re: Butt end rules

Postby dblacklock Mon May 02, 2011 8:31 pm

Dave:

Where in the opinnion of the referee is could be dangerous then they should correct as soon as it comes to their attention. We believe though that the call for stick checks should come from the Head Coach as it could be for strategic reasons when the call is made.
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Re: Butt end rules

Postby UKLacrosse Mon May 02, 2011 9:26 pm

So both metal showing on the butt end, and longer strings than 2 inches, both being rules specific to safety, should be picked up by referees and not necessarily left to teams to use to call stick checks, where they might use it to overturn goals? If a ref sees these, just as he sees a loose chin strap, then he stops the game? Makes sense so long as all refs are applying it that way.
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Re: Butt end rules

Postby rpowell Tue May 03, 2011 12:46 pm

UKLacrosse wrote:Don, is this rule implemented by the referees, or only if the opposing coach/ captain calls a stick check?
If this is a safety rule, like the 2 inches of string/ lace then it seems odd that the refrees do not have control over safety, and that it's left to the decision of the opposition??

Actual situation from BNCs at the weekend...

Player: "Ref, you want to look at number 13's stick, the strings are too long"
Referee: "Talk to your head coach"

The number has been changed to preserve anonymity :)
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Re: Butt end rules

Postby UKLacrosse Tue May 03, 2011 3:15 pm

rpowell wrote:
UKLacrosse wrote:Don, is this rule implemented by the referees, or only if the opposing coach/ captain calls a stick check?
If this is a safety rule, like the 2 inches of string/ lace then it seems odd that the referees do not have control over safety, and that it's left to the decision of the opposition??

Actual situation from BNCs at the weekend...

Player: "Ref, you want to look at number 13's stick, the strings are too long"
Referee: "Talk to your head coach"

The number has been changed to preserve anonymity :)


Classic example where the referee has handed over the responsibility for 'safety' to the opposing team's coach/ captain.
How wrong can that be? Matches this season have/ might have been decided by this, and it should never have been implemented in this way. As an additional point ..... the rule is not applicable as far as I know in the women's game, where it could be even more of a problem.
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Re: Butt end rules

Postby rpowell Tue May 03, 2011 5:06 pm

UKLacrosse wrote:
rpowell wrote:
UKLacrosse wrote:Don, is this rule implemented by the referees, or only if the opposing coach/ captain calls a stick check?
If this is a safety rule, like the 2 inches of string/ lace then it seems odd that the referees do not have control over safety, and that it's left to the decision of the opposition??

Actual situation from BNCs at the weekend...

Player: "Ref, you want to look at number 13's stick, the strings are too long"
Referee: "Talk to your head coach"

The number has been changed to preserve anonymity :)


Classic example where the referee has handed over the responsibility for 'safety' to the opposing team's coach/ captain.
How wrong can that be? Matches this season have/ might have been decided by this, and it should never have been implemented in this way. As an additional point ..... the rule is not applicable as far as I know in the women's game, where it could be even more of a problem.


Au contraire... in the womens game:
a) Loose side-wall strings are limited to 4cm.
b) I cannot find anything specific on shooting strings, but personally would use the 4 cm as a guide to assist me when performing the pre-game stick-check.
c) There are four pages in latest womens rule book on the crosse, followed by an appendix of 18 pages on detailed construction, down to the level of how many times a shooting string can be would around itself in each gap between thongs.
d) Oh, and you can't use a stick until it has been evaluated and approved on behalf of the FIL at a testing facility.

All of which makes me glad to be part of mens lacrosse... :)

Going briefly back to the main point - I like the balance we have in the current rules and working practice. Give it another season, and most players will have adjusted to the new rule.
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Re: Butt end rules

Postby dblacklock Thu May 05, 2011 7:41 pm

I don't think we are abdicating responsibility of H&S to the coaches. If in the opinnion of the referee something is dangerous then they shoudl call it. I can't comment directly on the BNC incident other then to say that the referee did not see it as a safety issue and suggested that your Head Coach should call for it. By you requesting, this is an illegal stick check request and therefore by all accounts should have been penalized. Win/Win as I see it.

I agree with Rob. Next season there should be no missunderstandings concerning the rules of the stick.
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Re: Butt end rules

Postby wildcat Fri May 06, 2011 8:52 am

rpowell wrote:
Au contraire... in the womens game:
a) Loose side-wall strings are limited to 4cm.
b) I cannot find anything specific on shooting strings, but personally would use the 4 cm as a guide to assist me when performing the pre-game stick-check.
c) There are four pages in latest womens rule book on the crosse, followed by an appendix of 18 pages on detailed construction, down to the level of how many times a shooting string can be would around itself in each gap between thongs.
d) Oh, and you can't use a stick until it has been evaluated and approved on behalf of the FIL at a testing facility.


I have never seen a women's ref measure strings. I have seen flailing sidewall longer than 4cm. They also dont carry protractors to measure offset angles! (straight/8degree/10degree shafts), and I have seen illegal combinations

Here's the most recent BS I've come across. All womens sticks and their spare sticks get sticks checked at the start of a game. The REF can then decide to check a stick whenever they want, apparently, over the course of the game (without being asked to by the opposition). In a couple of games I have seen this resulting in a single player's stick being checked multiple times (and found legal each time), with no one on the opposition having their stick checked for the entire game.

Are there any women's refs on here that would like to put that one to the board of referees when you next meet. Or you could always vote for the powers of stop and search at lacrosse matches.
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Re: Butt end rules

Postby UKLacrosse Fri May 06, 2011 9:19 am

wildcat wrote:
rpowell wrote:
Au contraire... in the womens game:
a) Loose side-wall strings are limited to 4cm.
b) I cannot find anything specific on shooting strings, but personally would use the 4 cm as a guide to assist me when performing the pre-game stick-check.
c) There are four pages in latest womens rule book on the crosse, followed by an appendix of 18 pages on detailed construction, down to the level of how many times a shooting string can be would around itself in each gap between thongs.
d) Oh, and you can't use a stick until it has been evaluated and approved on behalf of the FIL at a testing facility.


I have never seen a women's ref measure strings. I have seen flailing sidewall longer than 4cm. They also dont carry protractors to measure offset angles! (straight/8degree/10degree shafts), and I have seen illegal combinations

Here's the most recent BS I've come across. All womens sticks and their spare sticks get sticks checked at the start of a game. The REF can then decide to check a stick whenever they want, apparently, over the course of the game (without being asked to by the opposition). In a couple of games I have seen this resulting in a single player's stick being checked multiple times (and found legal each time), with no one on the opposition having their stick checked for the entire game.

Are there any women's refs on here that would like to put that one to the board of referees when you next meet. Or you could always vote for the powers of stop and search at lacrosse matches.


You could also add that there are endless numbers using illegal women's sticks i.e. US spec and non-FIL compliant.
We've even removed the screw-on pieces from the the deBeer Moxie for those who do not know that the head is only FIL approved without them! I'm still of the opinion that the implementation of the men's rule concerning 2" lengths of string was poorly introduced. There are endless instances where referees could see these, but decided to leave the opposing team to challenge with a stick check. In that instance the referee most surely abdicated responsibility for safety, otherwise, why was the rule ever introduced in the first place?
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Re: Butt end rules

Postby dblacklock Fri May 06, 2011 10:55 am

Clearly the 2" rule was introduced in the interest of H&S. however a string 2.5" is not likely too much of a H&S concern, however still illegal. The 2" measurement was taken from the NCAA rule set so that the two books could be harmonized in this regard.

As for the implementation I don't see what else we could have done other than issue a free pair of scissors to the first 100 people who read the rule book and identified that the rule had changed. We even underline and italicize the rule changes in the book to make it easier to identify the new or changed rules along with a table of changes at the beginning.

The FIL rule book can be downloaded for free from the FIL web site and makes for great bathroom reading. No one will steal it from the back of the toilet and it has short passages for those quicker sessions. Happy readiung
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Re: Butt end rules

Postby Steely Dan Fri May 06, 2011 11:30 am

Surely all rules, whether in place for safety or otherwise, should be enforced and upheld by the players in the first instance (especially for static, non gameplay related matters).

If this is true then the Refs in this instance should be in place to penalise those who fail to read & react to the 100's of emails and numerous forum posts on the matter - sometimes you need the stick over the carrot.
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Re: Butt end rules

Postby J-Lo Fri May 06, 2011 12:37 pm

Sour37 wrote:
gh07gh wrote:ok thanks for that, figured you would say common sense but good to get other opinions....


Bottle caps are specifically prohibited. But other than that as long as it ain't dangerous...go wild


Only metal bottle caps.

no harm in using a cap from a 3l bottle of strongbow or a 2l bottle of pepsi for example
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Re: Butt end rules

Postby davidmcculloch81 Fri May 06, 2011 2:08 pm

J-Lo wrote:
Sour37 wrote:
gh07gh wrote:ok thanks for that, figured you would say common sense but good to get other opinions....


Bottle caps are specifically prohibited. But other than that as long as it ain't dangerous...go wild


Only metal bottle caps.

no harm in using a cap from a 3l bottle of strongbow or a 2l bottle of pepsi for example


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Re: Butt end rules

Postby Dining Room Fri May 06, 2011 2:39 pm

Rochdales Steve G who passed away a couple of years ago had a mini Mr Potato Head as a butt end.
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