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What Happened Next?

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What Happened Next?

Defender stays where he is on crease
5
14%
Defender slides to dodging middie and body checks dodger
2
5%
Defender "Shows" slide and dodger runs away from goal
6
16%
Defender Slides head down and misses man completely
6
16%
Defender goes behind goal to mark attacker
12
32%
Defender tries to slide and falls flat on his face
6
16%
 
Total votes: 37
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UKLaxfan
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What Happened Next?

Postby UKLaxfan Sun May 22, 2011 1:16 pm

Have a look at attached from yesterdays NCAA QF between Denver & Johns Hopkins

The ball is with the Denver player on left side of goal.

Guess what the defender nearest the goal does when the Denver middie dodges
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What Happened Next?
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Re: What Happened Next?

Postby hatswell Sun May 22, 2011 3:31 pm

So what does happen next?
There's no such thing as 'OFF-SEASON'
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Re: What Happened Next?

Postby el_corto Sun May 22, 2011 7:12 pm

I NEED TO KNOW WHAT HAPPENED!!!
if he fell flat on his face then thats one of the best things to happen ever!! :D
Staffordshire Uni Lacrosse 2010 - Present #82

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D-Man, Long-Pole Middy!
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Re: What Happened Next?

Postby UKLaxfan Mon May 23, 2011 12:44 pm

The question should probably be why does the defender do this?

I've seen 2008 England U19s and England Seniors do this and it makes no sense to me

Can someone please provide a logical explanation as to why a defender would do this?

He goes behind goal to mark a player without the ball while the ball carrier has a free run to goal.

He takes himself out of a sliding position... WHY????
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Defender goes behind goal
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Re: What Happened Next?

Postby UKLaxfan Mon May 23, 2011 12:45 pm

Middie dodger has free run to goal
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Re: What Happened Next?

Postby UKLaxfan Mon May 23, 2011 12:46 pm

Middie scores while defender is stood behind goal marking a player who doesn't have the ball

Please Explain Why
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Goal for Denver
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Re: What Happened Next?

Postby Rotisserie Mon May 23, 2011 1:30 pm

My only suggestion would be that it is to close off the outlet pass. The slide is clearly not his to make (since you can see the defender just above the crease ready to slide in the first image) so moving out of a sliding position shouldn't matter? Perhaps they feel that by locking off the easy outlet pass, the double team is more likely to cause a turnover?

In this situation it didn't work because the slide came from too far away and too late!
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Re: What Happened Next?

Postby UKLaxfan Mon May 23, 2011 2:10 pm

This is a defensive schematic breakdown

I understand that the defender on the high crease is probably the "nominated" slide man but things don't always go to plan and by going behind goal he takes himself out of a potential cover position.

The first priority should be to protect the goal, in this situation he should have stayed in front of goal and become the slide and the high crease Dman could drop and cover the attacker behind goal if he comes round the front of the cage.

This situation was exploited by Denver more than once and cost Hopkins 6 or 7 goals, as they were more worried about an off ball man than the ball carrier in front of the goal.

The defensive scheme is flawed IMO if this situation is repeated
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Re: What Happened Next?

Postby DanSawyer Mon May 23, 2011 11:53 pm

I'd be interested to know whether it was always the same dodger and/man behind.

Petro does tend to have specific plans for specific players, so I wonder whether he'd decided that on that dodge we close off the man behind? Had Denver scored a few in previous games by dodging and having x sneak behind a low crease slide?

In which case the short answer to "why would the defender do that?" would be "because in today's NCAA he's just a pawn who moves as dictated by coach rather than as seems best to him"...
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Re: What Happened Next?

Postby UKLaxfan Tue May 24, 2011 5:06 am

DanSawyer wrote:I'd be interested to know whether it was always the same dodger and/man behind.

Petro does tend to have specific plans for specific players, so I wonder whether he'd decided that on that dodge we close off the man behind? Had Denver scored a few in previous games by dodging and having x sneak behind a low crease slide?

In which case the short answer to "why would the defender do that?" would be "because in today's NCAA he's just a pawn who moves as dictated by coach rather than as seems best to him"...


Q: Why did he do that?
A: Simply answer is because Coach told him to

Denver's #33 & #22 received special attention (Denver's Top Scorers) and defenders seemed very reluctant to slide from them.

It's the degree of this "No Slide" policy that seems bizarre to me

There is no slide unless emergency, which is reasonable and then there is no slide under any circumstances...

Then there is the example above where you tell the defender to take himself out of a cover position to mark someone behind goal who hasn't got the ball :shock:

How dangerous is a player if you would rather mark them behind the goal where they couldn't score even if they did have the ball, than mark a player with the ball running at the goal unopposed to shoot at your goalie?

England U19s did this in 2008 vs Iroquois Nationals (game 1) and it drove me crackers

To see it by Hopkins and it cost them the game beggars belief

As to the slide isn't his so why worry theory, he is stood on the crease in front of goal the other defender is 10 yards away.

Later in the game they were in a circle offense and there was still No Slide even though the defender was adjacent :twisted:

One argument I heard was they were defending with a crease slide vs the circle offense even though there isn't a crease attackman in the Circle Offense

*******************
It feels as though there was a secret defensive coaches meeting that I missed where they described the Magic attack player who is a bigger threat to score without the ball than the guy stood in front of goal with the ball :?

Funny old game
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Re: What Happened Next?

Postby UKLaxfan Tue May 24, 2011 5:30 am

One last point

check out the movement of #33 red in the above photos

he stands still doing nothing and yet the defender takes himself out of the defense and helps create offense for the opposition

Dan mentioned pawns, well you don't give up pawns for nothing leaving the King exposed :?
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Re: What Happened Next?

Postby UKLaxfan Tue May 24, 2011 10:42 pm

Circle Offense from same game (ie no crease attack)

Part 1:
Middie on right has the ball
2 Hopkins defenders one on each side of goal at or just above GLE
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Circle Offense
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Re: What Happened Next?

Postby UKLaxfan Tue May 24, 2011 10:44 pm

Part 2:
Middie dodges his SSDM and runs to goal
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Middie Dodges
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Re: What Happened Next?

Postby UKLaxfan Tue May 24, 2011 10:47 pm

Part 3:
Middie shoots and scores
Notice the position of the 2 Hop defenders and their position relative to Part 2

These guys are Top Div I defenders, athletes and high Lacrosse IQ
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Middie scores
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Re: What Happened Next?

Postby DanSawyer Wed May 25, 2011 9:57 am

Curiouser and curiouser...
I'm also a little puzzled by JHU #4. He seems to be doubling up, even on picture 1.

Is this a stretched zone Hopkins are playing? Seems to have the worst featured of zone and m2m: no slide but also no sagging to the ball by the furthest men (GLE).
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Re: What Happened Next?

Postby DanSawyer Wed May 25, 2011 10:00 am

Playing possible devil's advocate, do Denver usually pass early? Are Hopkins not sliding because Denver have been prone to dodge and immediately pass, without going to goal directly?

Just a thought...
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Re: What Happened Next?

Postby Rotisserie Wed May 25, 2011 10:29 am

DanSawyer wrote:Curiouser and curiouser...
I'm also a little puzzled by JHU #4. He seems to be doubling up, even on picture 1.

Is this a stretched zone Hopkins are playing? Seems to have the worst featured of zone and m2m: no slide but also no sagging to the ball by the furthest men (GLE).


It looks like they're running adjacent slides. You can clearly see that both #4 and the JHU defender the other side of the dodger are getting ready to slide (depending on which way he goes). What I don't understand is how #4 messed up his slide so badly that the dodger slipped between the two of them.

On another note, i'd be interested to see a similar breakdown of Cornell's defence vs Virginia this weekend. In quarter two (7-0 virginia), Cornell's defence struggled repeatedly against one Virginia play in particular. Virginia would have the ball in the attack (either behind or on the wing) and the rest of the offensive players would assemble in a vertical line down the middle of the pitch. They would then all split off in different directions and at least one UVA player was always open. It was frustrating to watch the Cornell defenders losing their man by simply ball-watching or not guarding them tightly enough.
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Re: What Happened Next?

Postby UKLaxfan Wed May 25, 2011 12:28 pm

If you look at Photo 1 again from the goalies perspective, there is nobody in front of him for 18 yards.

He must feel lonely out there

They are playing an adjacent slide but #4 is too far out so has a bad angle and was late

what still bugs me is that when the scheme has broken down, the 2 defenders on GLE have cement boots on and simply watch the middie run in and score :twisted:

is that really team defense?

Make a play :roll:
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Re: What Happened Next?

Postby UKLaxfan Wed May 25, 2011 2:03 pm

Rotisserie wrote:On another note, i'd be interested to see a similar breakdown of Cornell's defence vs Virginia this weekend. In quarter two (7-0 virginia), Cornell's defence struggled repeatedly against one Virginia play in particular. Virginia would have the ball in the attack (either behind or on the wing) and the rest of the offensive players would assemble in a vertical line down the middle of the pitch. They would then all split off in different directions and at least one UVA player was always open. It was frustrating to watch the Cornell defenders losing their man by simply ball-watching or not guarding them tightly enough.

This was a different scenario for me, rather than a defensive schematic breakdown, the goals were a result of great offensive ball & player movement.

#6 Steele Stanwick created a mismatch problem for them, he was capable of dodging his defender and going to goal or if they slide to him, he was able to find the open man.

It was a case of excellent execution and hard work, the rest of the Virginia players worked really hard off ball to create space and get open.

since Shamel Bratton was kicked off the team, the ball moves around the perimeter a lot quicker and forces defenders to make a lot more decisions.

Example Virginia's 4th Goal:
Part 1:
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#6 Stanwick has ball - Behind right
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Re: What Happened Next?

Postby UKLaxfan Wed May 25, 2011 2:07 pm

Part 2: UVA set a Pick on Ball to create separation
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On Ball Pick at X
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