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for all the Goalies? Tips from the coaches. Advice from players.

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Moaning Git
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Postby Moaning Git Sun Nov 20, 2005 9:40 pm

Havergoalie wrote
No matter how much we might like to claim it, there's no real injury that can come from getting hit below the knees and above the feet with a rubber ball. Having stood in front of shots from some of the best in the world back home, including an AJ Shannon blast that was clocked at 105mph at a camp, I've never gotten a leg injury from a shot in my career playing elite prep school and University lacrosse in the states. Come on. Sure it stings, but it's not going to do anything lasting.


Which I have to say is not be experience, but then I do not claim to be a World Class goalie, just the poor mug who volunteered to go into goal in their first ever match and woke up the following day with 27 purple bruises over my torso, swollen bollocks, and a shin that turned into very interesting shades of blue, red and yellow over the next month while the swelling went down and I was able to walk again. Yes you could say it stung a bit.

From personal experience the medical opinion above is pretty crappy, so I refered the question to a friend of mine a doctor in a midlands hospital for over 20 years, a rugby and minor counties cricket player for his comments. They are appended below: -

Hi John,
thanks for sending through the exchange you have been having about potential injuries to the legs, I needed a laugh. I am not sure who the clown is who states that there are no potential injuries that can occur to the lower leg if hit be a lacrosse ball travelling at speed but he is a braindead ****. He may have been lucky up to now, but not everyone has bones as thick as his head obviously is......

His comments bear the crass niavety of callow youth, it has not happened to me yet, so it won't happen...... if he spent a couple of weeks working in a casualty department he might change his mind..... One of the most common injuries we have to deal with following a test series is damage to young shins and ankles from cricket balls thrown or hit at speed..... it only takes one!

It really is a pity that such ******* should get a hearing....... it is not just the potential for serious immediate damage that he is ignoring, thrombosis for example, but also the long term effects of such injuries which heighten vulnerability to arthritis and circulatory conditions. Seeing as he is invulnerable, ask the **** if he wears a box, or does he have brass balls?

Cheers

Matt
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HaverGoalie
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Postby HaverGoalie Sun Nov 20, 2005 10:04 pm

My thanks for posting those incredibly disrespectful and unconstructive comments. I also thank you for presenting me in such an apparently fair light that he felt the need to resort to profanity in discussing me. Keep it civil or this discussion will go nowhere.

To disassemble your boy's comments, I have first of all "spent a couple of weeks working in a casualty department" as I am what we call an Emergency Medical Technician in America, one of the guys who rides on ambulances and is a low level Emergency Room assistant. I'm no doctor, but I've seen what your rude friend has seen.

Second, of course he's seen injuries galore from cricket balls, just as I've seen plenty from baseballs. It's a completely irrelevant example, because those balls are hard as a rock and in an impact situation, bones and tissue have to give instead of the ball. In lacrosse, the rubber ball does at least equal absorption to that your shin must do. I'd love to see the fellow who has such severe osteoporosis and atrophied musculature that he manages to sustain lasting damage from a rubber ball.

Third, I'm not speaking on my own experience but on that of coaches and all the great goalies I've been lucky enough to encounter playing at the high level I've been able to in America. Having spoken to the best and the brightest talents in this sport of ours, not one goalie has ever sustained lasting injury from a shot to a shin. I've spoken to some great old farts and the only sports injuries that nag them to this day are knee problems and shaky hips, no arthritis or thrombosis. The honesty and ability of those who claim otherwise is immediately prone to suspicion

I've tried to respond civilly to both of your outlandish posts and I'd appreciate it if you could do the same. Me disagreeing with you need not be taken as a personal affront, and personal is what you made it when you posted that attack on my intelligence, maturity, and character.


p.s. You're damn right I wear a "box," or a "cup" as we call it, a huge amply padded hockey goalie model in fact. I don't skimp on protection for the areas that can't protect themselves. I skip padding in areas where possible damage is superficial.
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Rian
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Postby Rian Mon Nov 21, 2005 12:32 am

Moaning Git wrote:
...woke up the following day with 27 purple bruises over my torso, swollen bollocks, and a shin that turned into very interesting shades of blue, red and yellow over the next month while the swelling went down and I was able to walk again. Yes you could say it stung a bit.

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Are your 'injuries' maybe slightly exaggerated? And aren't we all friends here? This is just an excercise of waying up the pros and cons of others' arguments, not a verbal arena for trash talk. If you can't say something positive don't say anything at all...

I agree with Havergoalie that in terms of turnover of the ball it makes sense to be less restricted in one's movement. I also agree that the pain from an injury sustained by a lacrosse ball to the shin doesn't necessarily warrant shin pads.

Which brings me onto why, at times it might be good to wear shin pads. Someone commented earlier that it might be a good idea to start a newbie goalie (such as myself) with pads to give them confidence and then ween them off. I agree with this in part as I believe it depends on the nature of the goalie; how they react to the pain initially. Of course there are benefits to learning to deal with the pain early on, but this won't help a goalie whose nature is to become more afraid once hit in the shins. In such a case I would say let them build up there stick skills until they're relatively confident and then start using less padding in training and later in games.

In summary I believe to be a top goalie in terms of saving the shot and being able to launch a quick counter-attack you have to play with less padding, however the route to achieving this doesn't require unnecessary suffereing (eg in training).
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HaverGoalie
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Postby HaverGoalie Mon Nov 21, 2005 1:05 am

I agree in some ways with the point that's been voiced twice that extra padding may be more justifiable in training than in games. I'll confess to occasionally sporting gel padded goalie shorts sort of like these but lighter weight- http://www.laxcity.com/view/29/36/ ... in practices when I know a lot of undefended shooting is to be expected. As I've established, I see little reason to wear leg pads ever, but if one is confident that it will not hinder their evolution as a keeper, different strokes for different folks. As long as padless, confident match play is the end result, I don't really care about the process to get there.
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Postby UKLaxfan Mon Nov 21, 2005 1:13 am

"There is more than one way to skin a cat"

A bit harsh on cats, but a worthwhile phrase.

If I Goalie wants to wear shin pads in practice or game it is up to them. If it makes them step to the ball more and attack shots then great. The idea that it is not cool for me is irrelevent. Performance is what counts, they is an argument for getting over the fear early and they may be valid in the USA where many more active players, so there is always someone else willing to step in the cage if it means they make the team

John Hunt Ex-Towson Goalie did a Coaching Clinic at Didsbury over New Year. He stepped into the cage with no leg pads, no chest pad, no Box and was going to go in without a helmet until persuaded otherwise. He was letting anyone shoot at him from 10 yrds, bounce shots, sidearm, whatever you want.

He caught everything in his stick and embaressed all the shooters, only one kid scored on him eventually and he won a stick.

The point being he had fantastic skills & technique and lightning reactions, he didn't rely on padding as he had confidence in his skills. I would not recommend any of the other kids at that clinic doing the same thing until they were that proficient and skilled at playing Goalie.

Fashion shouldn't come into it. A few years back there was a craze for defenders not to wear armpads, the logic being that they were that tough that if they got hit they wouldn't show any pain, and they would get the person who hit them back even harder. A number of US College players did this successfully so it was copied over here.

In reality what happened was the defenders didn't wear armpads but wouldn't go within a mile of a groundball because they might get hit. If you are going to do something you have to back it up. If you don't wear pads fine but play like you do, don't look the part then bottle it.

As for Moaning Git, I saw the game in question. I had never seen a Goalie injured by a shot in the "bread basket" until that game and then it happened twice... that's just unlucky. Unfortunately Git got no help from his defence who had virtually given up, Git stood in there and took the punishment, they lost 17-4.

Finally, training for Goalies at practice can often be little or no use, very rarely getting a proper warm up and are used as a shooting target. Hppefully the clinic will show people importance of getting a warm up and practicing proper technique, which they can take back to their own Club practices.

UKLF 8)
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ArmourAsh
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US/UK Goalies

Postby ArmourAsh Mon Nov 21, 2005 12:42 pm

Gentlemen,
Firstly, great topic, great thread.
A couple of points from my perspective:
Although the discussion is all about goalkeeping, the conceptualization of what it means to play goalie is a little different between the US/UK factions.

American goalies, read "successful", American goalies are the product of lengthy selection and coaching processes. We never discuss Ex JV goalies who quit because they kept getting hit in the back of the helmet. These US keepers benefit from a range of, ever increasing, advantages over their UK counterparts beyond simple coaching and practice time such as:

Better team defences
Better shooting opposition
Better fields

All these factors combine to produce the US Goalie "Ethic" and one of the cornerstones of the "ethic" is no superfluous padding. Having played in the states, (and perhaps even against HaverGoalie – presuming he is relating to Haverford College, PA and when he graduated?), I fully support the traditional zero padding argument. After six years of playing and coaching over there I never witnessed any shot related injuries of any kind to the legs or arms, beyond temporary bruising. BUT one of the reasons for this is due to the above factors creating situations where US Goalies very rarely get hit in the legs, unless they are attempting to flail/kicksave at close range. (They DO get drilled in practice however!)

This all changes when you come back to the UK. Partly due to the mental aspect as argued by HaverGoalie, i.e. HaverGoalie “savesâ€
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HaverGoalie
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Postby HaverGoalie Mon Nov 21, 2005 12:48 pm

Fascinating post, thanks for your thoughts Ash. I see the different mentality more clearly now. I'm actually still at Haverford, just at Oxford as a Visiting Student for the year and I return to graduate in '07. Where/when did you play?
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ArmourAsh
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Playing years

Postby ArmourAsh Mon Nov 21, 2005 1:10 pm

Goucher College, MD 1999-2003... I was just looking online to see how we did against you guys, but couldn't find much - I suspect we edged it over the four years...

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Postby Mr.Stanford Mon Nov 21, 2005 1:14 pm

Are you not listening Rian. Lax goal keepers should not be saving shots with limbs (unless your John Marr), there is a reason for that really big net you all carry :D So you dont need the extra bits on the leg, but it's good that you are working on removing the pads, it will make you a better keeper.
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Rian
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Postby Rian Mon Nov 21, 2005 1:58 pm

I am listening...and trying to soak up all this info like a dry sponge as I am a complete newbie :D . Basically all the coaching I get is from reading what you guys think is right/wrong, contrasting it with my common sense and then trying to adapt it into my game. Which is exactly why I can't wait to head over to Hitchin on the 27th!
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HaverGoalie
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Postby HaverGoalie Mon Nov 21, 2005 2:18 pm

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Postby Ian#4 Mon Nov 21, 2005 3:46 pm

Its not my shins that I'm concerned with when (rarely) playing in goal, it's my knees. There's a lot that can get messed up there. I know that there's not much that can be done other than wearing massive pads, but are pads such as cricket pads actually legal? I see a lot of mixed keepers using them.
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Postby bam bam Mon Nov 21, 2005 4:13 pm

I was under the impression that you couldn't wear pads which increased the your shadow on the goal (i.e. width).
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Rian
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Postby Rian Mon Nov 21, 2005 4:41 pm

Thanks HaverGoalie. Hopefully next time we play you guys at the end of March I'll be able to put up more of a fight in goal...
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HaverGoalie
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Postby HaverGoalie Mon Nov 21, 2005 4:47 pm

Lookin forward to it. No shame in your performance. You and your defense held us to the same number of goals as the solid American goalie from Gloucester just did on Saturday. You were seeing shots in the 80 mile an hour range, (judging from practice levels,) from our scary attackers, didn't exactly ease you into the sport in one of your first games.
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Postby mandy Mon Nov 21, 2005 5:02 pm

bam bam wrote:I was under the impression that you couldn't wear pads which increased the your shadow on the goal (i.e. width).


you can't, cricket pads are illegal (though this rarely gets called) as they are wider than your body. can't remember the exact wording but you're right
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Moaning Git
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Postby Moaning Git Tue Nov 22, 2005 12:50 am

Yep artificial aids are illegal, so hockey and cricket pads are out. Anyway I am arguing in favour of leg protection not a knee high barricade!
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Postby bam bam Tue Nov 22, 2005 1:14 am

Never had a problem with my knee or shins, did get a blood rupture in my thigh though from a 4 foot power shot into my inside thigh. Burst a blood vessel and had this hard ball of blood in my thigh. Yuck :(
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Postby sotonsalmon Wed Nov 23, 2005 2:22 pm

I just wear shinpads and a pair of goalie shorts with padding. Chances are in a match you'll get him on the legs a couple of times out of many shots, so the sacrifice of movement for big hockey pads just isn't worth it. Plus it pays to be as quick as possible if you're out of the crease and everyone's shouting "Twat the keeper!" :P
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Rian
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Postby Rian Wed Nov 23, 2005 3:28 pm

...didn't even shout it, they just did it. 2 of them! I guess they were mad cos i creamed their #10 on my crease...
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